5 ms·

Would it be legal to use a sheet like that as currency?

kxrm 2y ago
Yes. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/steve-wozniak-2-dollar-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/steve-wozniak-2-dollar-bil...
752963e64 2y ago
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buryat 2y ago
It's not considered legal tender since it's not a note, it doesn't have to be accepted. The cut out notes don't have to be accepted either as it's difficult to determine the authenticity of the sheet itself.
- em500 2y ago
  Sellers are largely free to choose what form of payment to accept or refuse, regardless of "legal tender" laws. The concept is much more narrow than commonly assumed: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
  - buryat 2y ago
    Yes, I wasn't sure about the exact legal code around it, hence I said "it doesn't have to be accepted" and provided a potential explanation that the counterparty can present. In the cited Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 it says: > Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks What would be the legal definition of a note sheet? Is it a note or not? A collection of bank notes? The bank notes have pretty specific definitions down to the specific measurements up to a certain precision. Would a music note sheet fall under this definition as well? I don't see what the US mint sells as a legal tender given the strict definition of bank notes themselves.
- eesmith 2y ago
  US Mint FAQ at https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-engraved-prints.html https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-e... > Is uncut currency legal tender? > Yes. The individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Legally speaking, yes. Practically, I'd reject someone handing me uncut currency as change.
    - eru 2y ago
      I'd gladly accept a whole sheet of uncut currency, because they sell for more than face value.
      - buryat 2y ago
        Who are you going to resell it to? You've just become the sucker while they recouped some of the losses.
        eru 2y ago
        If you accept it at face value, how have they recouped their losses? And how are you a sucker? > Who are you going to resell it to? Ebay or so, if you have no better idea.
  - buryat 2y ago
    > The individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender. It doesn't say that the whole sheet would be considered as a collection of legal tender. So far I see that the individual notes are legal tender, it doesn't say what happens if you cut it. Everything it says is about uncut currency sheets.
    - kxrm 2y ago
      > it doesn't say what happens if you cut it. It does though? > Can I cut uncut currency sheets? What happens if the notes on my sheet were cut apart? > Because the individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender, they may be cut apart and spent. Were you to do this, they would only be valued at their face value, even though you would have paid more than their cumulative value for the uncut currency sheet.
throwaway8153 2y ago
Quote from Woz: "They meet the specs of the U.S. government, so by law, these are legal tender. I have been spending them. You can get arrested for them, you cannot get convicted because you're in the right." It is probably not something you should do unless you are prepared to pay for a good lawyer, and don't mind the risk of getting arrested
- eru 2y ago
  I don't think you need a good lawyer, because the case is pretty clear. But you do run the risk of annoying people and getting into some temporary legal trouble.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  >They meet the specs of the U.S. government, so by law, these are legal tender. That's not how it works. North Korea is great at producing dollars that "meet the specs" but they are still counterfeit. The US dollar is not an open standard. Valid US currency is only produced by the mint. If you do something to a valid US dollar, it might still stay a valid US dollar, but that's not because they still "meet the specs". Meanwhile the law says >“whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.” 18 U.S.C. § 333.
  - throwaway8153 2y ago
    > That's not how it works. North Korea is great at producing dollars that "meet the specs" but they are still counterfeit The quote from Steve Wozniak refers to an official sheet of dollar bills, purchased from the official source. I'm sure that he considers the source as part of the "specs", and is not referring to only the physical aspects. >“whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, This doesn't apply here https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-engraved-prints.html https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-e... "Can I cut uncut currency sheets? What happens if the notes on my sheet were cut apart? Because the individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender, they may be cut apart and spent. Were you to do this, they would only be valued at their face value, even though you would have paid more than their cumulative value for the uncut currency sheet."

kxrm 2y ago

Yes. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/steve-wozniak-2-dollar-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/steve-wozniak-2-dollar-bil...

752963e64 2y ago

[dead]

buryat 2y ago

It's not considered legal tender since it's not a note, it doesn't have to be accepted. The cut out notes don't have to be accepted either as it's difficult to determine the authenticity of the sheet itself.

em500 2y ago
Sellers are largely free to choose what form of payment to accept or refuse, regardless of "legal tender" laws. The concept is much more narrow than commonly assumed: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
- buryat 2y ago
  Yes, I wasn't sure about the exact legal code around it, hence I said "it doesn't have to be accepted" and provided a potential explanation that the counterparty can present. In the cited Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 it says: > Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks What would be the legal definition of a note sheet? Is it a note or not? A collection of bank notes? The bank notes have pretty specific definitions down to the specific measurements up to a certain precision. Would a music note sheet fall under this definition as well? I don't see what the US mint sells as a legal tender given the strict definition of bank notes themselves.
eesmith 2y ago
US Mint FAQ at https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-engraved-prints.html https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-e... > Is uncut currency legal tender? > Yes. The individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Legally speaking, yes. Practically, I'd reject someone handing me uncut currency as change.
  - eru 2y ago
    I'd gladly accept a whole sheet of uncut currency, because they sell for more than face value.
    - buryat 2y ago
      Who are you going to resell it to? You've just become the sucker while they recouped some of the losses.
      - eru 2y ago
        If you accept it at face value, how have they recouped their losses? And how are you a sucker? > Who are you going to resell it to? Ebay or so, if you have no better idea.
- buryat 2y ago
  > The individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender. It doesn't say that the whole sheet would be considered as a collection of legal tender. So far I see that the individual notes are legal tender, it doesn't say what happens if you cut it. Everything it says is about uncut currency sheets.
  - kxrm 2y ago
    > it doesn't say what happens if you cut it. It does though? > Can I cut uncut currency sheets? What happens if the notes on my sheet were cut apart? > Because the individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender, they may be cut apart and spent. Were you to do this, they would only be valued at their face value, even though you would have paid more than their cumulative value for the uncut currency sheet.

throwaway8153 2y ago

Quote from Woz: "They meet the specs of the U.S. government, so by law, these are legal tender. I have been spending them. You can get arrested for them, you cannot get convicted because you're in the right." It is probably not something you should do unless you are prepared to pay for a good lawyer, and don't mind the risk of getting arrested

eru 2y ago
I don't think you need a good lawyer, because the case is pretty clear. But you do run the risk of annoying people and getting into some temporary legal trouble.
mrguyorama 2y ago
>They meet the specs of the U.S. government, so by law, these are legal tender. That's not how it works. North Korea is great at producing dollars that "meet the specs" but they are still counterfeit. The US dollar is not an open standard. Valid US currency is only produced by the mint. If you do something to a valid US dollar, it might still stay a valid US dollar, but that's not because they still "meet the specs". Meanwhile the law says >“whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.” 18 U.S.C. § 333.
- throwaway8153 2y ago
  > That's not how it works. North Korea is great at producing dollars that "meet the specs" but they are still counterfeit The quote from Steve Wozniak refers to an official sheet of dollar bills, purchased from the official source. I'm sure that he considers the source as part of the "specs", and is not referring to only the physical aspects. >“whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, This doesn't apply here https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-engraved-prints.html https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-and-e... "Can I cut uncut currency sheets? What happens if the notes on my sheet were cut apart? Because the individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal tender, they may be cut apart and spent. Were you to do this, they would only be valued at their face value, even though you would have paid more than their cumulative value for the uncut currency sheet."