4 ms·

That's not bad though, by the preferences of the people driving the cars. I've done a couple very informal low sample count surveys, and as far as I can tell t

by Vecr 2y ago

That's not bad though, by the preferences of the people driving the cars. I've done a couple very informal low sample count surveys, and as far as I can tell the result of pricing in the externalities and building what mass transit is realistic (not much, in certain places) would lead to at least a short-term reduction in satisfaction.

Y_Y 2y ago
> pricing in externalities .. would lead to ... reduction in satisfaction [for those paying] I agree with everything you said and would add > That's not bad though Of course people who aren't paying something would rather not pay it. In the case of externalizing those costs, they're getting an effective subsidy from society at large for something they disproportionately participate in! I think the complaint about induced demand for roads is that it induces demand in those who have the means and motive to drive. The land those roads are on (and the environment the cars may pollute) is also demanded for other uses like green space or railway or housing. It's a rivalrous finite resource and the part of society that doesn't benefit from more roads may be the larger part.
iknowstuff 2y ago
To be clear, this is what happens when you pander to car commuters and build out car infrastructure instead of livable cities: https://ggwash.org/view/4315/houstons-cars-vs-rotterdams-bombs https://ggwash.org/view/4315/houstons-cars-vs-rotterdams-bom... Google some more before/after car infrastructure photos: https://www.google.com/search?q=before+after+car+infrastructure https://www.google.com/search?q=before+after+car+infrastruct... So you see it’s NOT just about the environment. It’s about cities being pleasant or dreadful.
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
People's preferences are heavily influenced by what is available. Ask the average person in a car-centric American city with no (or barely any) public transit, and of course they prefer to drive. Ask that same question of someone who lives in a city with great public transit (e.g., pick any major city in East Asia, or many cities in Europe) and congested roads, and their answer will be very different.

by Vecr 2y ago

Y_Y 2y ago

> pricing in externalities .. would lead to ... reduction in satisfaction [for those paying] I agree with everything you said and would add > That's not bad though Of course people who aren't paying something would rather not pay it. In the case of externalizing those costs, they're getting an effective subsidy from society at large for something they disproportionately participate in! I think the complaint about induced demand for roads is that it induces demand in those who have the means and motive to drive. The land those roads are on (and the environment the cars may pollute) is also demanded for other uses like green space or railway or housing. It's a rivalrous finite resource and the part of society that doesn't benefit from more roads may be the larger part.

iknowstuff 2y ago

To be clear, this is what happens when you pander to car commuters and build out car infrastructure instead of livable cities: https://ggwash.org/view/4315/houstons-cars-vs-rotterdams-bombs https://ggwash.org/view/4315/houstons-cars-vs-rotterdams-bom... Google some more before/after car infrastructure photos: https://www.google.com/search?q=before+after+car+infrastructure https://www.google.com/search?q=before+after+car+infrastruct... So you see it’s NOT just about the environment. It’s about cities being pleasant or dreadful.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

People's preferences are heavily influenced by what is available. Ask the average person in a car-centric American city with no (or barely any) public transit, and of course they prefer to drive. Ask that same question of someone who lives in a city with great public transit (e.g., pick any major city in East Asia, or many cities in Europe) and congested roads, and their answer will be very different.