5 ms·

"They bought a Windows laptop, for Windows things.." Most people bought a laptop - for computer things. Most people don't care for the OS at all. They care if

by lukan 2y ago

"They bought a Windows laptop, for Windows things.." Most people bought a laptop - for computer things. Most people don't care for the OS at all. They care if they can do the stuff they want to do. For most it is just browsing and that works mostly the same. But if it is more than browsing, then chances are, they won't be happy with libreoffice or gimp, if they are used to microsoft office and photoshop. Also, the main problem with linux on laptops are still drivers. Standby issues, broken keyboard backlighting, mousepad not working after resume, ... Still, anyone who can make the transition, should make the transition.

nubinetwork 2y ago
The point I was trying to make is that they're not going to. That would take effort and learning something new. They just want a working computer, yesterday, and they're not going to waste time with "that Linux thing".
- gerdesj 2y ago
  My wife rocks Arch. She calls it Facebook and email and internet. On a more serious note, my work intranet wiki page for turning a stock Ubuntu (Kubuntu but I also allow any Ubuntu variant) box into a corporate one is getting quite short these days. It's a lot shorter than the Windows equivalent one. They are hamstrung by the lack of a central software source.
- registeredcorn 2y ago
  For some, I think it's a bit more fundamental than that. I'll give an example of a conversation with a family member, who bought a used computer a few months ago and claimed it was "broken" (they didn't know where the power button was, and thought the charging cable was wrong (it was USB-C)) Me: "Oh, well since it's used, we should probably do a clean install. I can reinstall Windows for you if you want...but if you're interested, or I could do Linux instead. It works as well as Windows, but if your computer ever breaks, I'm not sure a technician could fix it as easily. It's got different benefits though, and would use this older hardware better." Them: "Oh? But how could you even do that?" Me: "Linux installs are pretty easy. As easy as Windows install." Them: "But isn't this a Windows laptop?" (It was a ThinkPad. Me: "No...it's just a laptop. Your laptop. You're not required to use Windows. You can use whatever you want. You own it." Them: "But how could it have Linux if it already had Windows? I thought this was a 'Windows' laptop? Doesn't this only work with Windows?" Me: "It can have Windows. It could also have Linux, instead. It's just what's installed right now to make the computer work. It's yours to do with as you wish." I could kind of see a look of surprise on their face. It hadn't even occurred to them that they were permitted to install anything but Windows, because they saw it as a "Windows" laptop. Ultimately I ended up reinstalling Windows because they were afraid of dealing with the unknown, as you mentioned.
  - gerdesj 2y ago
    You could try putting Linux on it anyway and just call it Windows. Well it is - X Windows, unless it's Waythingie and who's counting anyway. Think about how wanky the entire IT experience really is: from phone to laptop to desktop. No one really knows what is going on: a user keeps poking at widgets until it does something. Most people have no idea what is going on, per se, and I do recall how confusing things looked when I first discovered the concept of folders/directories. That would be the very early '80s.
    - registeredcorn 2y ago
      I certainly did consider it, and even told them as much. Ultimately though, I tried to imagine what it would feel like if I asked a friend to do something to my car, he agreed, then did something completely different because "it's better"; it might be, but I'd kind of resent it on principle. :/ I did make sure to mention that the chromebook they had at home, as well as the smartphone they were using, were both technically (kind of) Linux, which threw them for a loop! Haha. :) I try to "plant seeds" and watch if any trust/interest grows naturally with time.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "It hadn't even occurred to them that they were permitted to install anything but Windows" Well, Microsoft certainly would like it, if this would not be the case. And some argue they tried to advance this concept with locking down the bootloader a bit.
- d3Xt3r 2y ago
  The point OP was trying to make is that for most people, they don't need to learn anything new - If all they're going to be doing is fire up Chrome and go to Facebook or whatever, then the OS doesn't really matter to them. The minor UI/UX differences between Windows and say, a distro running KDE or XFCE isn't any greater than the difference between two major Windows versions. I mean, look at Windows 11, a lot of normies were unhappy about the center oriented taskbar. And look at the mess that Windows 8 was - no start button initially, and a fullscreen start menu. The proof in the pudding is the relative success of Chromebooks - normies buy it knowing that all they need is a browser, and they didn't need to take any big effort to learn anything new.
  - bubblethink 2y ago
    >The proof in the pudding is the relative success of Chromebooks Actually, I think Chromebooks are a failure. Google used the wrong strategy, namely being too controlling and restrictive, with Chromebooks. This is diametrically opposite to Chrome or Android. Chrome and Android's pitch was simple, "No matter how shit your hardware is, we'll give you a good operating system/browser". It was a lost closer to the linux ethos. Chromebooks on the other hard are integrated and licensed devices that manufacturers make in collaboration with Google. They are all crap because Google's needs are different from the manufacturer's or the market's. Outside of the education sector, where there is some product market fit, they are useless trash. A waste of so much good technology.
    - lukan 2y ago
      "Outside of the education sector, where there is some product market fit, they are useless trash" Give me another ultramobile and rugged linux laptop for 300 bucks with touchscreen and I gladly take it. I also would consider a more expensive one, but for outdoor use, I never found a better working device than chromebooks. Of course the OS by itself is terrible. Via VMs every app is possible, but for me I have a very simple dev device with node and chrome dev tools (in developer mode)
    - d3Xt3r 2y ago
      When I said success, I didn't say that in terms of technology or market share, I meant it in terms of normies being able to adapt to a different OS without having to undergo training. The fact that normies were able to simply pick up and use a Chromebook shows that people can use a different non-mainstream OS, as long as their needs are simple.
gerdesj 2y ago
"Also, the main problem with linux on laptops are still drivers." No they really are not.
- lukan 2y ago
  So you are saying, that there are worse problems, or are you saying my driver issues just happen in my imagination?
  - Krutonium 2y ago
    Your driver issues are the minority. Most people won't have them.
    - weirdal3333 2y ago
      I installed Linux Mint on samsung 500c chromebook, 3 thinkpads, 2 optiplexes, an old gateway, an old lenovo ideapad, a new lenovo yoga, one of those weird Dell laptops, an x64 tablet, in a VM on my phone... All of them, including the thinkpads with the weird hybrid GPUs, worked out of the box with 0 immediate issues. For the thinkpads, I did all the updates and chose the proprietary Nvidia drivers, rebooted, and... Yup, no issues, the drivers work fine, I can switch power profiles and over/underclock the GPUs without any issues and without any extra software. Keyboard backlights work fine. Camera works fine. I can set up the fingerprint sensor to do fancy things like output the fingerprint to a png. WiFi has no issues. I think most of the naysayers think it's still 2014 when these things were actually an issue.
      - lukan 2y ago
        Well, I installed Linux on 2 Asus, 2 HP, 1 Acer, 1 Dell Laptop. And tried out, Ubuntu (Lubuntu), Manjaro, EndeavourOS, Mint and now Fedora. None of the laptops worked stable, like my chromebooks do. I do close and open and resume a lot, maybe your use case is more stationary? Mine is mobile - and I gladly take recommendations for reliable lightweight linux laptops (with touchscreen).
marcodiego 2y ago
> Also, the main problem with linux on laptops are still drivers. Standby issues, broken keyboard backlighting, mousepad not working after resume, ... This simply doesn't happen when you buy from an established vendor that sells computers with Linux out of the box. My suggestion these days is: even if you're going to use windows, buy a computer that comes with Linux; drivers (even windows drivers) are usually better. Use windows on a VM and only install it baremetal if performance is an issue.
- lukan 2y ago
  Indeed, but we were talking about installing linux on a already existing laptop so people don't have to buy a new laptop. Also the avaiable models are very, very limited. (which is why I use a chrome laptop when mobile)

by lukan 2y ago

nubinetwork 2y ago

The point I was trying to make is that they're not going to. That would take effort and learning something new. They just want a working computer, yesterday, and they're not going to waste time with "that Linux thing".

gerdesj 2y ago
My wife rocks Arch. She calls it Facebook and email and internet. On a more serious note, my work intranet wiki page for turning a stock Ubuntu (Kubuntu but I also allow any Ubuntu variant) box into a corporate one is getting quite short these days. It's a lot shorter than the Windows equivalent one. They are hamstrung by the lack of a central software source.
registeredcorn 2y ago
For some, I think it's a bit more fundamental than that. I'll give an example of a conversation with a family member, who bought a used computer a few months ago and claimed it was "broken" (they didn't know where the power button was, and thought the charging cable was wrong (it was USB-C)) Me: "Oh, well since it's used, we should probably do a clean install. I can reinstall Windows for you if you want...but if you're interested, or I could do Linux instead. It works as well as Windows, but if your computer ever breaks, I'm not sure a technician could fix it as easily. It's got different benefits though, and would use this older hardware better." Them: "Oh? But how could you even do that?" Me: "Linux installs are pretty easy. As easy as Windows install." Them: "But isn't this a Windows laptop?" (It was a ThinkPad. Me: "No...it's just a laptop. Your laptop. You're not required to use Windows. You can use whatever you want. You own it." Them: "But how could it have Linux if it already had Windows? I thought this was a 'Windows' laptop? Doesn't this only work with Windows?" Me: "It can have Windows. It could also have Linux, instead. It's just what's installed right now to make the computer work. It's yours to do with as you wish." I could kind of see a look of surprise on their face. It hadn't even occurred to them that they were permitted to install anything but Windows, because they saw it as a "Windows" laptop. Ultimately I ended up reinstalling Windows because they were afraid of dealing with the unknown, as you mentioned.
- gerdesj 2y ago
  You could try putting Linux on it anyway and just call it Windows. Well it is - X Windows, unless it's Waythingie and who's counting anyway. Think about how wanky the entire IT experience really is: from phone to laptop to desktop. No one really knows what is going on: a user keeps poking at widgets until it does something. Most people have no idea what is going on, per se, and I do recall how confusing things looked when I first discovered the concept of folders/directories. That would be the very early '80s.
  - registeredcorn 2y ago
    I certainly did consider it, and even told them as much. Ultimately though, I tried to imagine what it would feel like if I asked a friend to do something to my car, he agreed, then did something completely different because "it's better"; it might be, but I'd kind of resent it on principle. :/ I did make sure to mention that the chromebook they had at home, as well as the smartphone they were using, were both technically (kind of) Linux, which threw them for a loop! Haha. :) I try to "plant seeds" and watch if any trust/interest grows naturally with time.
- lukan 2y ago
  "It hadn't even occurred to them that they were permitted to install anything but Windows" Well, Microsoft certainly would like it, if this would not be the case. And some argue they tried to advance this concept with locking down the bootloader a bit.
d3Xt3r 2y ago
The point OP was trying to make is that for most people, they don't need to learn anything new - If all they're going to be doing is fire up Chrome and go to Facebook or whatever, then the OS doesn't really matter to them. The minor UI/UX differences between Windows and say, a distro running KDE or XFCE isn't any greater than the difference between two major Windows versions. I mean, look at Windows 11, a lot of normies were unhappy about the center oriented taskbar. And look at the mess that Windows 8 was - no start button initially, and a fullscreen start menu. The proof in the pudding is the relative success of Chromebooks - normies buy it knowing that all they need is a browser, and they didn't need to take any big effort to learn anything new.
- bubblethink 2y ago
  >The proof in the pudding is the relative success of Chromebooks Actually, I think Chromebooks are a failure. Google used the wrong strategy, namely being too controlling and restrictive, with Chromebooks. This is diametrically opposite to Chrome or Android. Chrome and Android's pitch was simple, "No matter how shit your hardware is, we'll give you a good operating system/browser". It was a lost closer to the linux ethos. Chromebooks on the other hard are integrated and licensed devices that manufacturers make in collaboration with Google. They are all crap because Google's needs are different from the manufacturer's or the market's. Outside of the education sector, where there is some product market fit, they are useless trash. A waste of so much good technology.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Outside of the education sector, where there is some product market fit, they are useless trash" Give me another ultramobile and rugged linux laptop for 300 bucks with touchscreen and I gladly take it. I also would consider a more expensive one, but for outdoor use, I never found a better working device than chromebooks. Of course the OS by itself is terrible. Via VMs every app is possible, but for me I have a very simple dev device with node and chrome dev tools (in developer mode)
  - d3Xt3r 2y ago
    When I said success, I didn't say that in terms of technology or market share, I meant it in terms of normies being able to adapt to a different OS without having to undergo training. The fact that normies were able to simply pick up and use a Chromebook shows that people can use a different non-mainstream OS, as long as their needs are simple.

gerdesj 2y ago

"Also, the main problem with linux on laptops are still drivers." No they really are not.

lukan 2y ago
So you are saying, that there are worse problems, or are you saying my driver issues just happen in my imagination?
- Krutonium 2y ago
  Your driver issues are the minority. Most people won't have them.
  - weirdal3333 2y ago
    I installed Linux Mint on samsung 500c chromebook, 3 thinkpads, 2 optiplexes, an old gateway, an old lenovo ideapad, a new lenovo yoga, one of those weird Dell laptops, an x64 tablet, in a VM on my phone... All of them, including the thinkpads with the weird hybrid GPUs, worked out of the box with 0 immediate issues. For the thinkpads, I did all the updates and chose the proprietary Nvidia drivers, rebooted, and... Yup, no issues, the drivers work fine, I can switch power profiles and over/underclock the GPUs without any issues and without any extra software. Keyboard backlights work fine. Camera works fine. I can set up the fingerprint sensor to do fancy things like output the fingerprint to a png. WiFi has no issues. I think most of the naysayers think it's still 2014 when these things were actually an issue.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Well, I installed Linux on 2 Asus, 2 HP, 1 Acer, 1 Dell Laptop. And tried out, Ubuntu (Lubuntu), Manjaro, EndeavourOS, Mint and now Fedora. None of the laptops worked stable, like my chromebooks do. I do close and open and resume a lot, maybe your use case is more stationary? Mine is mobile - and I gladly take recommendations for reliable lightweight linux laptops (with touchscreen).

marcodiego 2y ago

> Also, the main problem with linux on laptops are still drivers. Standby issues, broken keyboard backlighting, mousepad not working after resume, ... This simply doesn't happen when you buy from an established vendor that sells computers with Linux out of the box. My suggestion these days is: even if you're going to use windows, buy a computer that comes with Linux; drivers (even windows drivers) are usually better. Use windows on a VM and only install it baremetal if performance is an issue.

lukan 2y ago
Indeed, but we were talking about installing linux on a already existing laptop so people don't have to buy a new laptop. Also the avaiable models are very, very limited. (which is why I use a chrome laptop when mobile)