4 ms·

Arghh, another otherwise knowledgeable practitioner who have chosen a Mircrosoft keyboard, believing that it's ergonomic. (Edit: not that it's his fault: there'

Arghh, another otherwise knowledgeable practitioner who have chosen a Mircrosoft keyboard, believing that it's ergonomic. (Edit: not that it's his fault: there's a serious "fame bias" here.) Not that it does no better than the regular dirt-cheap keyboard. It is an improvement over that. But it still have those damn keys slanted towards the left for both hands. We could do better: http://loup-vaillant.fr/articles/better-keyboards http://loup-vaillant.fr/articles/better-keyboards I also hope he started using a Dvorak layout or similar. The learning curve is not cool if he already types fast, but the gain in comfort is noticeable.

borplk 14y ago
I'd love to learn Dvorak but the problem is not all computers are easily configured to Dvorak. Then when you have to use someone else's computer you'll look like an idiot or have to ask them to install/configure another keyboard layout which is not much better. I've seen it happen to people and it's quite painful. Operating systems should have a trivial way of switching between layouts (perhaps even a physical button dedicated to this).
- risratorn 14y ago
  I find it hard to believe that dvorak or any other ergonomic keyboard layouts would have that much impact on my productivity that a QUERTY keyboard.
  - thornofmight 14y ago
    I can't imagine DVORAK adds enough enough value to justify constantly switching back and forth between DVORAK and QWERTY keyboards.
  - paul-woolcock 14y ago
    You would be surprised, I was.
- fceccon 14y ago
  > I'd love to learn Dvorak but the problem is not all computers are easily configured to Dvorak. Changing layout on OS X and Gnome (I'm not sure about Win) is quite fast, usually if I need to type on someone else computer for more than 10 minutes I tell them and change it. Also even if I've switched to Dvorak a year ago I can still type at a good speed on qwerty.
  - Jtsummers 14y ago
    Switching in Windows is easy. With the right configuration it's just ctrl+shift to swap back and forth. I've been using Dvorak for 12 years. Initially my QWERTY speed was seriously hampered, but after being in environments where switching was less convenient (public labs and the like) it recovered.
- paul-woolcock 14y ago
  I purchased a QIDO[1] just for this reason. It obviously doesn't work for all situations in which you are on someone else's computer, but it has served me well so far. I mainly use it for when I am on Windows (see next paragraph). In regards to OS support, the only OS I have really had problems with is Windows. Maybe I just wasn't checking the right checkboxes, but Windows seems to default to "I assume you want a different keyboard layout for each window, so have fun with that!" OSX and Linux have always been very sane, defaults-wise. 1: http://www.keyghost.com/qido/ http://www.keyghost.com/qido/
chewxy 14y ago
There is http://TrulyErgonomic.com http://TrulyErgonomic.com as well, which has the added benefit of being a mechanical keyboard, It would be the next keyboard I would look at buying (since my current Leopold is giving me a lot of strain during extended coding periods)
- lflux 14y ago
  It has the same bug as the original MS keyboard, the arrow keys are in a cross and not an inverted-T. Not sure if I agree with the placement of pgup/dn, enter and backspace either.
- watty 14y ago
  Holy expensive, $230? I realize it's mechanical but that's still a lot of money. If the design is so superior why would there not be non-mechanical alternatives in the $50 range?
  - astrodust 14y ago
    It's because people shopping for a $50 keyboard don't care about that sort of thing. They probably want backlit keys or macro buttons.
  - loup-vaillant 14y ago
    For the same reason the keys are still staggered on most keyboard: ignorance, stupidity, and risk aversion. You don't need much of each: they feed on each other to preserve the status quo. Many people seem to believe that slanting the keys to the left is actually more ergonomic than a straight "matrix" design. And I think manufacturers aren't willing to risk selling keyboards that don't have the usual look. The natural keyboard is no different. They sell one idea: splitting the keyboard. The rest doesn't change because it would spur too many questions, and maybe cost them customers.
lflux 14y ago
Maybe it works well enough for him? It sure alleviated my RSI a lot. Switching to a MS Natural, remapping Ctrl and using US layout instead of Swedish more or less saved my wrists. (Not that I wouldn't mind a Kinesis, but those weren't available when I really needed one).
grimborg 14y ago
I'm on a TypeMatrix 2030, but I find the ctrl keys a bit out of the way (emacs... :D)
- loup-vaillant 14y ago
  Remap some of your most used shortcuts to alt. It just requires you to bend your thumb under your palm, and less so than most keyboards. I very much like to use Alt + JKLI to move the cursor.
jsvaughan 14y ago
But the MS 4000 is the absolute best feeling keyboard, ergo or not (allowing for the fact that you can't in a normal situation use a model m or variant because of the noise). I defy anyone to name a better non buckling spring keyboard. Logitech? don't even suggest it.
- alinajaf 14y ago
  Have you had actual objection to using a Model M? I've used my Unicomp Customizer (sort of like a Model M replica) at least four different developer jobs and not had any complaints.
  - jsvaughan 14y ago
    I suppose it depends on your work environment, but yes, one at a previous employer ended up being the server room keyboard because of the noise.
- falcolas 14y ago
  My two Rosewill keyboards, and my Das Keyboard, will happily stand up to that challenge. The key is the switches, and anything that uses mechanical switches will almost automatically feel better to type on than keyboards that do not.
  - jsvaughan 14y ago
    you may have got me there; i was under the impression that the das was a buckling spring, but googling reveals that it isnt. But how does it compare for noise? <EDIT> Ah, according to Ars "How loud is this product? Very loud". So for my situation (quiet open plan offices usually), probably no good. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2010/02/office-warfare-our-months-with-the-das-keyboard/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2010/02/office-warfare-our-mo...
    - falcolas 14y ago
      Yup, it's fairly loud - though a lot of the noise comes from old habits of pushing the key all the way to the bottom of its travel - required for membrane switches, but not for mechanical switches. Also, if you want a quieter keyboard but still want mechanical switches, you can go for the Rosewill keyboards with Cherry MX Brown switches - it gives you a tactile bump, but no associated "click". You'll still make a lot of noise if you bottom out, however. If you get out of that habit (easier on your fingers, by the way), they're quiet as a mouse.

borplk 14y ago

I'd love to learn Dvorak but the problem is not all computers are easily configured to Dvorak. Then when you have to use someone else's computer you'll look like an idiot or have to ask them to install/configure another keyboard layout which is not much better. I've seen it happen to people and it's quite painful. Operating systems should have a trivial way of switching between layouts (perhaps even a physical button dedicated to this).

risratorn 14y ago
I find it hard to believe that dvorak or any other ergonomic keyboard layouts would have that much impact on my productivity that a QUERTY keyboard.
- thornofmight 14y ago
  I can't imagine DVORAK adds enough enough value to justify constantly switching back and forth between DVORAK and QWERTY keyboards.
- paul-woolcock 14y ago
  You would be surprised, I was.
fceccon 14y ago
> I'd love to learn Dvorak but the problem is not all computers are easily configured to Dvorak. Changing layout on OS X and Gnome (I'm not sure about Win) is quite fast, usually if I need to type on someone else computer for more than 10 minutes I tell them and change it. Also even if I've switched to Dvorak a year ago I can still type at a good speed on qwerty.
- Jtsummers 14y ago
  Switching in Windows is easy. With the right configuration it's just ctrl+shift to swap back and forth. I've been using Dvorak for 12 years. Initially my QWERTY speed was seriously hampered, but after being in environments where switching was less convenient (public labs and the like) it recovered.
paul-woolcock 14y ago
I purchased a QIDO[1] just for this reason. It obviously doesn't work for all situations in which you are on someone else's computer, but it has served me well so far. I mainly use it for when I am on Windows (see next paragraph). In regards to OS support, the only OS I have really had problems with is Windows. Maybe I just wasn't checking the right checkboxes, but Windows seems to default to "I assume you want a different keyboard layout for each window, so have fun with that!" OSX and Linux have always been very sane, defaults-wise. 1: http://www.keyghost.com/qido/ http://www.keyghost.com/qido/

chewxy 14y ago

There is http://TrulyErgonomic.com http://TrulyErgonomic.com as well, which has the added benefit of being a mechanical keyboard, It would be the next keyboard I would look at buying (since my current Leopold is giving me a lot of strain during extended coding periods)

lflux 14y ago
It has the same bug as the original MS keyboard, the arrow keys are in a cross and not an inverted-T. Not sure if I agree with the placement of pgup/dn, enter and backspace either.
watty 14y ago
Holy expensive, $230? I realize it's mechanical but that's still a lot of money. If the design is so superior why would there not be non-mechanical alternatives in the $50 range?
- astrodust 14y ago
  It's because people shopping for a $50 keyboard don't care about that sort of thing. They probably want backlit keys or macro buttons.
- loup-vaillant 14y ago
  For the same reason the keys are still staggered on most keyboard: ignorance, stupidity, and risk aversion. You don't need much of each: they feed on each other to preserve the status quo. Many people seem to believe that slanting the keys to the left is actually more ergonomic than a straight "matrix" design. And I think manufacturers aren't willing to risk selling keyboards that don't have the usual look. The natural keyboard is no different. They sell one idea: splitting the keyboard. The rest doesn't change because it would spur too many questions, and maybe cost them customers.

lflux 14y ago

Maybe it works well enough for him? It sure alleviated my RSI a lot. Switching to a MS Natural, remapping Ctrl and using US layout instead of Swedish more or less saved my wrists. (Not that I wouldn't mind a Kinesis, but those weren't available when I really needed one).

grimborg 14y ago

I'm on a TypeMatrix 2030, but I find the ctrl keys a bit out of the way (emacs... :D)

loup-vaillant 14y ago
Remap some of your most used shortcuts to alt. It just requires you to bend your thumb under your palm, and less so than most keyboards. I very much like to use Alt + JKLI to move the cursor.

jsvaughan 14y ago

But the MS 4000 is the absolute best feeling keyboard, ergo or not (allowing for the fact that you can't in a normal situation use a model m or variant because of the noise). I defy anyone to name a better non buckling spring keyboard. Logitech? don't even suggest it.

alinajaf 14y ago
Have you had actual objection to using a Model M? I've used my Unicomp Customizer (sort of like a Model M replica) at least four different developer jobs and not had any complaints.
- jsvaughan 14y ago
  I suppose it depends on your work environment, but yes, one at a previous employer ended up being the server room keyboard because of the noise.
falcolas 14y ago
My two Rosewill keyboards, and my Das Keyboard, will happily stand up to that challenge. The key is the switches, and anything that uses mechanical switches will almost automatically feel better to type on than keyboards that do not.
- jsvaughan 14y ago
  you may have got me there; i was under the impression that the das was a buckling spring, but googling reveals that it isnt. But how does it compare for noise? <EDIT> Ah, according to Ars "How loud is this product? Very loud". So for my situation (quiet open plan offices usually), probably no good. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2010/02/office-warfare-our-months-with-the-das-keyboard/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2010/02/office-warfare-our-mo...
  - falcolas 14y ago
    Yup, it's fairly loud - though a lot of the noise comes from old habits of pushing the key all the way to the bottom of its travel - required for membrane switches, but not for mechanical switches. Also, if you want a quieter keyboard but still want mechanical switches, you can go for the Rosewill keyboards with Cherry MX Brown switches - it gives you a tactile bump, but no associated "click". You'll still make a lot of noise if you bottom out, however. If you get out of that habit (easier on your fingers, by the way), they're quiet as a mouse.