5 ms·

German power prices turn negative amid expansion in renewables

18 points by rustoo 2y ago

belter 2y ago
This means you need to pay to send energy to the grid.
- PicassoCTs 2y ago
  Does this charge get transferred to providers of storage?
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
"Coal plants fined for lack of responsiveness to grid requirements" might be batter headline.
BillBull 2y ago
Energy is like, totally free in Germany. How great things must be for their industry.
- saddat 2y ago
  Just it is not , those are peak events only
westurner 2y ago
Given the intraday prices, are there sufficient incentives to stimulate creation of energy storage businesses to sell the excess electricity back a couple hours or days later? Or have the wasteful idiot cryptoasset miners been regulated out of existence such that there is no longer a buyer of last resort for excess rationally-subsidized clean energy? Are the Duck Curve and Alligator curve problems the same in EU and other energy markets with and without intraday electricity prices? Duck curve: Solar peaks around noon, but energy usage peaks around the evening commute and dinner; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve Alligator curve: Wind peaks in the middle of the night; https://fresh-energy.org/renewable-integration-in-the-midwest-is-a-whole-other-animal https://fresh-energy.org/renewable-integration-in-the-midwes... : > So, if we’re not duck-like, what is the Upper Midwest’s energy mascot? We give you: the Smilin’ Gator Curve. Unlike California’s ominous, faceless duck, Sally Gator welcomes the Midwest’s commitment to renewable generation! (An excellent drawing of a cartoon municipally-bonded incumbent energy utility mascot!) Can cryptoasset or data mining firms scale to increase demand for electricity when energy prices low or below zero? What are there relocation costs? Is such a low subsidized energy price lucrative to energy storage, not-yet-PQ Proof-of-Work, and other data mining firms? Can't GPE gravitational potential energy in old but secured mine shafts scale to meet energy storage requirements?
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  As far as I’m aware, at least what has been explained to me, storage is a smaller problem. The bigger problem is how do you transfer that energy from where it is stored to where it is needed. Wind farms in the sea help nothing in Bayern.
  - Loveaway 2y ago
    The answer is obvious, you synthesize hydrocarbons. It's your guess as to why this isn't done or hardly even talked about.
    - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      Sure. H2 is one of the storage methods. Been saying that for years. But when there’s a need surge in Bayern now and overproduction at the sea… that still doesn’t help you.
    - sagarm 2y ago
      Because the resulting fuel isn't economically viable. You need to amortize equipment costs and round trip efficiency is really poor.
    - majoe 2y ago
      This is one of those obvious ideas, that sounds good on a first glance, but where it's totally non obvious, if it's really profitable in practice. The maximum power you can take from the grid depends on the max. power of your electrolysers. But you only want to run the electrolysers, when they are profitable, that is when the electricity prices are low enough due to oversupply. On the other hand the whole equipment is probably expensive to buy and keep running, so you want to run them as long and often as possible. Additionally you may use energy storage to prolong the profitable time windows of your electrolysers. That said, it would be really great, if hydrogen and/or hydrocarbons would be synthesised at scale. There are many pilot projects and I hope one finds the right tech and trade offs to make this profitable.
    - chews 2y ago
skybrian 2y ago
It would be interesting to read more about the power generators that aren’t disconnecting. How much of that is retail solar?
leobg 2y ago
Context: We do pay ~0.20 Euros of taxes per kWh. You have to add that to the actual power price. (And we do pay tax on income before we use that income to pay for power to our homes.)

18 points by rustoo 2y ago

belter 2y ago

This means you need to pay to send energy to the grid.

PicassoCTs 2y ago
Does this charge get transferred to providers of storage?

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

"Coal plants fined for lack of responsiveness to grid requirements" might be batter headline.

BillBull 2y ago

Energy is like, totally free in Germany. How great things must be for their industry.

saddat 2y ago
Just it is not , those are peak events only

westurner 2y ago

Given the intraday prices, are there sufficient incentives to stimulate creation of energy storage businesses to sell the excess electricity back a couple hours or days later? Or have the wasteful idiot cryptoasset miners been regulated out of existence such that there is no longer a buyer of last resort for excess rationally-subsidized clean energy? Are the Duck Curve and Alligator curve problems the same in EU and other energy markets with and without intraday electricity prices? Duck curve: Solar peaks around noon, but energy usage peaks around the evening commute and dinner; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve Alligator curve: Wind peaks in the middle of the night; https://fresh-energy.org/renewable-integration-in-the-midwest-is-a-whole-other-animal https://fresh-energy.org/renewable-integration-in-the-midwes... : > So, if we’re not duck-like, what is the Upper Midwest’s energy mascot? We give you: the Smilin’ Gator Curve. Unlike California’s ominous, faceless duck, Sally Gator welcomes the Midwest’s commitment to renewable generation! (An excellent drawing of a cartoon municipally-bonded incumbent energy utility mascot!) Can cryptoasset or data mining firms scale to increase demand for electricity when energy prices low or below zero? What are there relocation costs? Is such a low subsidized energy price lucrative to energy storage, not-yet-PQ Proof-of-Work, and other data mining firms? Can't GPE gravitational potential energy in old but secured mine shafts scale to meet energy storage requirements?

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
As far as I’m aware, at least what has been explained to me, storage is a smaller problem. The bigger problem is how do you transfer that energy from where it is stored to where it is needed. Wind farms in the sea help nothing in Bayern.
- Loveaway 2y ago
  The answer is obvious, you synthesize hydrocarbons. It's your guess as to why this isn't done or hardly even talked about.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    Sure. H2 is one of the storage methods. Been saying that for years. But when there’s a need surge in Bayern now and overproduction at the sea… that still doesn’t help you.
  - sagarm 2y ago
    Because the resulting fuel isn't economically viable. You need to amortize equipment costs and round trip efficiency is really poor.
  - majoe 2y ago
    This is one of those obvious ideas, that sounds good on a first glance, but where it's totally non obvious, if it's really profitable in practice. The maximum power you can take from the grid depends on the max. power of your electrolysers. But you only want to run the electrolysers, when they are profitable, that is when the electricity prices are low enough due to oversupply. On the other hand the whole equipment is probably expensive to buy and keep running, so you want to run them as long and often as possible. Additionally you may use energy storage to prolong the profitable time windows of your electrolysers. That said, it would be really great, if hydrogen and/or hydrocarbons would be synthesised at scale. There are many pilot projects and I hope one finds the right tech and trade offs to make this profitable.
  - chews 2y ago

skybrian 2y ago

It would be interesting to read more about the power generators that aren’t disconnecting. How much of that is retail solar?

leobg 2y ago

Context: We do pay ~0.20 Euros of taxes per kWh. You have to add that to the actual power price. (And we do pay tax on income before we use that income to pay for power to our homes.)