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This article [1] claims that only 0.4% of all the plastic in the oceans floats to the surface, and is therefore reachable by boat. I feel like ocean cleanup is

This article [1] claims that only 0.4% of all the plastic in the oceans floats to the surface, and is therefore reachable by boat. I feel like ocean cleanup is done more to make us feel better about using plastic bottles than to actually solve the problem. Maybe that money would have been better spent lobbying against some kinds of platics rather than on boats to scoop the coastline? [1] https://help.plasticbank.com/en_US/collection-community-members-faq-copy-507/why-cleaning-the-ocean-isnt-effective https://help.plasticbank.com/en_US/collection-community-memb...

venky180 2y ago
I agree. This seems like they treating symptoms of the problem than the actual cause.
- dartos 2y ago
  Sometimes it’s better to treat the symptoms if the root cause is out of reach.
  - _Algernon_ 2y ago
    In this case calling the root cause out of reach seems more like a form of learned helplessness than an actually true statement though.
    - charrondev 2y ago
      If you are a normal individual and don’t control or have influence over the largest polluters in the world it seems to me your options are either: - Come at it from an angle assuming people and nations will continue to pollute and try to clean up the mess (what this group is doing). It is a bit defeatist but more realist than other takes. I would assert that it is the opposite of helplessness. This is a group actually doing something that they are capable of doing and having some impact. Likely more impact than your or I. - Try to shame individuals into doing better. This seems to have limited success as collective action today is much weaker than in the past, and this is more of a systems / incentives / externalities problem than an individual one.
  - ath3nd 2y ago
    Oh, yeah, it's so out of reach to force companies (entities made by and comprising of humans) to not use a packaging that destroys the earth (the place where humans live). - There is the financial solution: taxing the hell out of plastic packaging. - There is the policy solution: simply not allowing plastic products. - There is the consumer solution: people refusing to buy plastic crap. - There is the R&D solution: producing better packaging (biodegradable, non-toxic etc) - There is the waste disposal solution: making sure plastic is properly separated and recycled/upcycled/disposed of. This is not a problem that's out of reach, it's a problem of human greed, wrong incentives, no political will, and general population apathy. But yeah, when babies start being born en massse with disabilities and grown ups start dying due to microplastics accumulation in soft tissues, the apathy will turn to anger, and suddenly political will will be there! But for now, all we have is relying on a Dutch guy's startup to clean our rivers and oceans cause we simply.gotta.drink.from.a.plastic.bottle. \s.
    - dartos 2y ago
      All I’m saying is that there is a huge machine backed my more money than can be reasoned about which doesn’t care about the environment. It’s been an almost 100 year battle to get laws and business culture to be more mindful. It’s clear that it doesn’t really work. At best it works, but far too slowly. The most any small group of people can do is treat symptoms. I don’t have faith in our ability to solve the root cause in the face of the political-industrial machine. Just in 2020 we saw crypto explode. An insane money hungry machine that burned energy to literally waste time so that the value of a record in a ledger increased. Both individuals and large businesses jumped on that trend with 0 care towards the environment. LLMs are similar in terms of energy consumption as well. I’m sorry, but I can’t share your optimism.
- diggan 2y ago
  > I agree. This seems like they treating symptoms of the problem than the actual cause. How do you agree with something when you don't even take 2 minutes to read a bit more, especially about what you're complaining about? They're not only trying to pick up plastics in the ocean, but also stop plastic from going from the rivers that flow into the oceans, and preventing plastic from entering the rivers in the first place.
dbetteridge 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18730865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18730865 Previous discussion on this
- diggan 2y ago
  From 2018, and seemingly very outdated. They're not just trawling the open ocean for plastics anymore, which is the base premise of the comment.
coreyh14444 2y ago
I subscribe to their YouTube channel and it seems like their trash blocking systems they have installed in rivers is probably the most valuable part of the whole thing from the outside observer's perspective. The amount of plastic they pull from these is really pretty incredible. But yeah, the part where they are on the open ocean collecting it seems pretty daunting, but maybe robotics can help one day??
- neuronic 2y ago
  Aren't the entire tropes and myths around pioneering startups to "start small" in someones garage? Why expect immediate perfection from a non-profit? It is irrelevant how small their impact is right now - at least someone is actually doing something against the behemoth problem of pollution.
msteffen 2y ago
I wonder about the river barriers. I buy that the ocean buoys aren’t effective, but it seems like plastic would be a lot more concentrated in the rivers that feed it into the ocean, and the rivers themselves are a lot shallower. I would be interested in reading an expert opinion on whether those make sense. Also, the criticism I’ve read runs along the lines “they can’t clean up a huge proportion of ocean plastic,” but the engineer in me can’t help but feel that that’s the wrong angle—it seems like the question should be “how does it compare to other methods on $/(kg plastic removed)”? Of course that question is currently unanswerable because what the critics propose is research, whose results are by definition undefined, but I guess I wish it was the focus of the conversation.
- diggan 2y ago
  > I wonder about the river barriers. I buy that the ocean buoys aren’t effective, but it seems like plastic would be a lot more concentrated in the rivers that feed it into the ocean, and the rivers themselves are a lot shallower. I would be interested in reading an expert opinion on whether those make sense. What is it that you're wondering about exactly? The article mentions and explains the progress of the "plastics in rivers blocking" that they're doing, in the "PREVENTING PLASTIC AT ITS SOURCE" section. > Our mission goes beyond cleaning the oceans; we also work to stop plastic from entering waterways in the first place.
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  I think the river barriers are certainly the most effective in terms of waste reduction per dollar, it’s just a question of optics— to Joe Public, the idea of only working on slowing the flow of new waste sounds too much like we’re declaring bankruptcy on what is already in the open ocean.
largbae 2y ago
Surface might be enough to save Albatrosses from extinction. Every little bit helps!

venky180 2y ago

I agree. This seems like they treating symptoms of the problem than the actual cause.

dartos 2y ago
Sometimes it’s better to treat the symptoms if the root cause is out of reach.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  In this case calling the root cause out of reach seems more like a form of learned helplessness than an actually true statement though.
  - charrondev 2y ago
    If you are a normal individual and don’t control or have influence over the largest polluters in the world it seems to me your options are either: - Come at it from an angle assuming people and nations will continue to pollute and try to clean up the mess (what this group is doing). It is a bit defeatist but more realist than other takes. I would assert that it is the opposite of helplessness. This is a group actually doing something that they are capable of doing and having some impact. Likely more impact than your or I. - Try to shame individuals into doing better. This seems to have limited success as collective action today is much weaker than in the past, and this is more of a systems / incentives / externalities problem than an individual one.
- ath3nd 2y ago
  Oh, yeah, it's so out of reach to force companies (entities made by and comprising of humans) to not use a packaging that destroys the earth (the place where humans live). - There is the financial solution: taxing the hell out of plastic packaging. - There is the policy solution: simply not allowing plastic products. - There is the consumer solution: people refusing to buy plastic crap. - There is the R&D solution: producing better packaging (biodegradable, non-toxic etc) - There is the waste disposal solution: making sure plastic is properly separated and recycled/upcycled/disposed of. This is not a problem that's out of reach, it's a problem of human greed, wrong incentives, no political will, and general population apathy. But yeah, when babies start being born en massse with disabilities and grown ups start dying due to microplastics accumulation in soft tissues, the apathy will turn to anger, and suddenly political will will be there! But for now, all we have is relying on a Dutch guy's startup to clean our rivers and oceans cause we simply.gotta.drink.from.a.plastic.bottle. \s.
  - dartos 2y ago
    All I’m saying is that there is a huge machine backed my more money than can be reasoned about which doesn’t care about the environment. It’s been an almost 100 year battle to get laws and business culture to be more mindful. It’s clear that it doesn’t really work. At best it works, but far too slowly. The most any small group of people can do is treat symptoms. I don’t have faith in our ability to solve the root cause in the face of the political-industrial machine. Just in 2020 we saw crypto explode. An insane money hungry machine that burned energy to literally waste time so that the value of a record in a ledger increased. Both individuals and large businesses jumped on that trend with 0 care towards the environment. LLMs are similar in terms of energy consumption as well. I’m sorry, but I can’t share your optimism.
diggan 2y ago
> I agree. This seems like they treating symptoms of the problem than the actual cause. How do you agree with something when you don't even take 2 minutes to read a bit more, especially about what you're complaining about? They're not only trying to pick up plastics in the ocean, but also stop plastic from going from the rivers that flow into the oceans, and preventing plastic from entering the rivers in the first place.

dbetteridge 2y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18730865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18730865 Previous discussion on this

diggan 2y ago
From 2018, and seemingly very outdated. They're not just trawling the open ocean for plastics anymore, which is the base premise of the comment.

coreyh14444 2y ago

I subscribe to their YouTube channel and it seems like their trash blocking systems they have installed in rivers is probably the most valuable part of the whole thing from the outside observer's perspective. The amount of plastic they pull from these is really pretty incredible. But yeah, the part where they are on the open ocean collecting it seems pretty daunting, but maybe robotics can help one day??

neuronic 2y ago
Aren't the entire tropes and myths around pioneering startups to "start small" in someones garage? Why expect immediate perfection from a non-profit? It is irrelevant how small their impact is right now - at least someone is actually doing something against the behemoth problem of pollution.

msteffen 2y ago

I wonder about the river barriers. I buy that the ocean buoys aren’t effective, but it seems like plastic would be a lot more concentrated in the rivers that feed it into the ocean, and the rivers themselves are a lot shallower. I would be interested in reading an expert opinion on whether those make sense. Also, the criticism I’ve read runs along the lines “they can’t clean up a huge proportion of ocean plastic,” but the engineer in me can’t help but feel that that’s the wrong angle—it seems like the question should be “how does it compare to other methods on $/(kg plastic removed)”? Of course that question is currently unanswerable because what the critics propose is research, whose results are by definition undefined, but I guess I wish it was the focus of the conversation.

diggan 2y ago
> I wonder about the river barriers. I buy that the ocean buoys aren’t effective, but it seems like plastic would be a lot more concentrated in the rivers that feed it into the ocean, and the rivers themselves are a lot shallower. I would be interested in reading an expert opinion on whether those make sense. What is it that you're wondering about exactly? The article mentions and explains the progress of the "plastics in rivers blocking" that they're doing, in the "PREVENTING PLASTIC AT ITS SOURCE" section. > Our mission goes beyond cleaning the oceans; we also work to stop plastic from entering waterways in the first place.
mikepurvis 2y ago
I think the river barriers are certainly the most effective in terms of waste reduction per dollar, it’s just a question of optics— to Joe Public, the idea of only working on slowing the flow of new waste sounds too much like we’re declaring bankruptcy on what is already in the open ocean.

largbae 2y ago

Surface might be enough to save Albatrosses from extinction. Every little bit helps!