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AFAIK the main coat of EUV is cost of machines that will be obsolete in few years, so you want to produce as many chips using them as possible during that timef

AFAIK the main coat of EUV is cost of machines that will be obsolete in few years, so you want to produce as many chips using them as possible during that timeframe, they design a lot of around to maintain near 100% uptime of those machines. This include buffers before and after machines (so any unplanned stalls are mitigated) and technicians trained to do maintenance in F1 pitstop fashion. (source: some tour of some chipmaker I saw online, no longer remember details)

lnsru 2y ago
These machines will be not obsolete for very long time. They are extremely rare and expensive. And the most of semiconductors are fabricated on mature nodes anyway.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  Not obsolete, but the margin on fabs drops off pretty quickly once they're not at the cutting edge, as I understand it, so they need to make back their capital investment fairly quickly.
  - nereye 2y ago
    With exceptions, was reading recently an interesting die analysis/estimate of the costs and margins of manufacturing of the AD9361 chip (a 65nm, digital radio transceiver, introduced 12 years ago and still selling at retail today for $300/$400): https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD9361-SDR-Analog-Devices-DAC-ADC-65nm https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD9361-SDR-Analog-Devices-DAC-... Relevant quotes (and the current retail price if anything is higher now then when the article was written): “ Retail price of AD9361 at distributes is 275$, volume price from manufacturer is 175$. That is quite an impressive added value! For 1,68$ of manufacturing cost we are getting 173,32$ of added value! Even Intel with their x86 or drug cartels could NOT do business like that.” Of course, the actual margin needs to take into account NRE and other costs (and the above link does get into that) but, in this case, the manufacturing is a tiny sliver of the costs.
yesthis 2y ago
That's not because they become obsolete, it's because they're the rate-limiting step (bottleneck).
javiramos 2y ago
When an ASML Lithography Machine Goes Down: https://youtu.be/6v9gx3Z4oVk https://youtu.be/6v9gx3Z4oVk?
nabla9 2y ago
> to maintain near 100% uptime They have uptime only about 80%. They need to be stopped, calibrated and maintained frequently. They do not go obsolete quicly. They are constantly upgraded. 10-15 year old fabs and machines are still running all over the world. There are 1000 nm, 90nm, 40 nm, 14 nm fabs still running. High-end is not all of semiconductor industry.
- brookst 2y ago
  Yes, it is more that margins are highest when a machine is brand new so it pays to maximize duty cycle. It will last for a decade, sure, but those 90nm fabs are not nearly as profitable as a 4nm fab.
zitterbewegung 2y ago
"Obsolete" which I guess for you means for the bleeding edge? Larger nanometer processes will still be in use since their cost will come down. For example when automakers stopped their orders for chips during COVID they pivoted (ported?) to higher nanometer designs because it wasn't a core requirement.

lnsru 2y ago

These machines will be not obsolete for very long time. They are extremely rare and expensive. And the most of semiconductors are fabricated on mature nodes anyway.

rcxdude 2y ago
Not obsolete, but the margin on fabs drops off pretty quickly once they're not at the cutting edge, as I understand it, so they need to make back their capital investment fairly quickly.
- nereye 2y ago
  With exceptions, was reading recently an interesting die analysis/estimate of the costs and margins of manufacturing of the AD9361 chip (a 65nm, digital radio transceiver, introduced 12 years ago and still selling at retail today for $300/$400): https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD9361-SDR-Analog-Devices-DAC-ADC-65nm https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD9361-SDR-Analog-Devices-DAC-... Relevant quotes (and the current retail price if anything is higher now then when the article was written): “ Retail price of AD9361 at distributes is 275$, volume price from manufacturer is 175$. That is quite an impressive added value! For 1,68$ of manufacturing cost we are getting 173,32$ of added value! Even Intel with their x86 or drug cartels could NOT do business like that.” Of course, the actual margin needs to take into account NRE and other costs (and the above link does get into that) but, in this case, the manufacturing is a tiny sliver of the costs.

yesthis 2y ago

That's not because they become obsolete, it's because they're the rate-limiting step (bottleneck).

javiramos 2y ago

When an ASML Lithography Machine Goes Down: https://youtu.be/6v9gx3Z4oVk https://youtu.be/6v9gx3Z4oVk?

nabla9 2y ago

> to maintain near 100% uptime They have uptime only about 80%. They need to be stopped, calibrated and maintained frequently. They do not go obsolete quicly. They are constantly upgraded. 10-15 year old fabs and machines are still running all over the world. There are 1000 nm, 90nm, 40 nm, 14 nm fabs still running. High-end is not all of semiconductor industry.

brookst 2y ago
Yes, it is more that margins are highest when a machine is brand new so it pays to maximize duty cycle. It will last for a decade, sure, but those 90nm fabs are not nearly as profitable as a 4nm fab.

zitterbewegung 2y ago

"Obsolete" which I guess for you means for the bleeding edge? Larger nanometer processes will still be in use since their cost will come down. For example when automakers stopped their orders for chips during COVID they pivoted (ported?) to higher nanometer designs because it wasn't a core requirement.