6 ms·

> the prison slavery system. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where is the enslavement?

krapp 2y ago
Read the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Slavery wasn't outlawed in the US, just made a monopoly franchise of the US government. It isn't coincidental that so many prisons were built on former plantation property, or that the incarceration rate of black men is so high.
- jmyeet 2y ago
  Not sure who's downvoting this because the comment is objectively correct [1][2][3]. The practice of "convict leasing" is modern day slavery. This system should be abolished or, at a minimum, the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor. [1]: https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-prison-labor-is-modern-day-slavery/ https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-prison... [2]: https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-slavery-alive-perspectives-from-the-prison-where-slavery-never-ended/ https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-sla... [3]: https://www.newsweek.com/book-american-slavery-continued-until-1941-93231 https://www.newsweek.com/book-american-slavery-continued-unt...
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    people that don’t have a fucking clue about slavery in their own country are the ones downvoting
  - smsm42 2y ago
    > the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor. Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs (leaving aside the question whether it really does, it is the intent). The prisoner has these basic physical needs already taken care of. Therefore, it makes no sense to pay both prisoner and a free low-wage worker the same. Moreover, if it were the situation, the very next day every paper would have a headline "Workers are being paid prisoner wages - outrage!" However, if the prisoners are allowed to work for commercial for-profit companies, the company that benefits from this work should be asked to cover a substantial part of the prisoner's sustenance bill - which also would be to the taxpayer's benefit. Of course, participation in such programs should be strictly voluntary - I imagine prison life is not too fun, so there should be a number of people who would agree to do it even for a relatively very low wage. That said, it could be incentivized e.g. by taking successful work experience into account for parole decisions, etc.
    - worik 2y ago
      > Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs * Many people locked up (in my country) are their families breadwinners * Many would if they could pay compensation, and victims would, if they could, receive it and improve their lives * Many leave prison with nothing. The ones not in the first clause often do not have families, nor friends left on the outside * Prisoners have, or can learn, valuable skills Put it all together, please. People (our fellow citizens, our comrades) should be sent to prison as punishment. Not for punishment. If they do not come out better than they went in (often a low bar) then we have failed. We can do so much better
      - musicale 2y ago
        Good points. And as you note, the punishment is (or should be) being deprived of one's freedom, not being mistreated in prison. It occurs to me that prisoners are usually exempt from child support payments (for example), but it might be better if they could actually contribute.
      - 2y ago
  - tzs 2y ago
    I would guess it is being downvoted because while what it says about the 13th Amendment is correct it isn't really relevant to the question it was answering. The question was whether or not US prisons use slavery. He answered the question of whether or not it would be legal for US prisons to use slavery. While is it legal, it is not mandated. A proper answer would examine the labor requirements actually in use in US prisons, compare them to labor requirements in other first world country prisons (and yes, several other first world countries make prisoners work), define just what they mean by slavery, and then try to make the case that the differences between what the US does and what other first world countries with required prison labor do is enough to make it slavery in the US.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Penal labor is not exclusive to the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour > It isn't coincidental that so many prisons were built on former plantation property, or that the incarceration rate of black men is so high. 32% of prisoners are Black: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... 56% of homicide perpetrators are Black: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S... Using homicide as indicator of general criminality because it's hard to fudge the numbers or inflate them with over-policing. Granted the correspondence is surely not perfect, but given such a parsimonious explanation, we'd need strong justification to reach for conspiratorial alternatives.
nashashmi 2y ago
Slave is sometimes also referred to as captured person or captive. An imprisoned person is a captive.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  There's usually a work component, though. An imprisoned person may or may not be enslaved as part of that imprisonment. If they get paid a reasonable wage, they're a prisoner with a job. If they're not forced to work, they're a prisoner but not a slave.
  - Aloisius 2y ago
    Slavery was a condition, usually a legal status, where someone's autonomy was stripped from them. The work component only existed because why else would one want a slave? If someone born into slavery died before they could walk, they still were a slave. If an old slave was allowed to retire without working again, that didn't stop them from being a slave.
- jgalt212 2y ago
  But there's no purchase or sale of a human. So where's the slavery?
  - SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
    Only chattel slavery involves purchase or sale of a human. Any forced labor is slavery, it just might not be chattel slavery.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    Prison labor is not limited to inside prisons: https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-investigation-alabama-takeaways-7ec182c7b1b604b1e4cb2ffb6e2a0f0a https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-inve... Your labor should not have financial considerations to the prison. You taking a sick day should not risk punishment up to and included increased security points and should not impact any prison employees pay/bonus (COs/AWs/Ws often get bonus' based on inmate labor metrics). Security points are the 'nice sanitized' way penal systems threaten violence on inmates. If you get points you go to a more dangerous yard where your safety will be threatened and you will get hurt. Anything that can incur security points is a implicit threat of violence against inmates. Inmates should not be threatened with violence for taking sick days/losing a non-prison job. Inmates jobs should not include the possibility of overtime because inmates CAN NOT REFUSE it. Inmates should not be threatened with violence (security points) if they do not want to work overtime of need a sick day. Inmate jobs should not include zero hour jobs (jobs where the schedule constantly changes and you are not guaranteed any hours) because inmates CAN NOT control their schedules and it works out to be a nightmare for them logistics wise. For example leading to inabilities to file legal mail (inability to schedule around mail room hours), missed meals (chow hall hours are fixed with almost no accommodation other than SHU/medical meals), excessive isolation during transfers, missed 'move times' resulting in no personal recreation time, etc.
yyyyz 2y ago
[dead]
bdangubic 2y ago
you seriously asking this or joking?????!
Brybry 2y ago
To add to sibling comments about the 13th amendment's exception clause (which is what legally allows forced prison labor[1]): forced prison labor has been a state-level ballot issue in recent years. Colorado voted to abolish slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crime in 2018 (though enforcement is reportedly poor). [2][3] In other states voters have upheld forced labor[4] but sometimes it's because of issues with how it's worded[5]. You can argue it's involuntary servitude instead of slavery but to most people that's a meaningless distinction. Especially while they are being beaten for not working.[6] [1] https://action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-labor-prisons https://action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-lab... [2] https://www.npr.org/2018/11/07/665295736/colorado-votes-to-abolish-slavery-2-years-after-similar-amendment-failed https://www.npr.org/2018/11/07/665295736/colorado-votes-to-a... [3] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-forced-labor-movement https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for... [4] https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/11/california-election-result-proposition-6-fails/ https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/11/california... [5] https://lailluminator.com/2022/11/17/the-story-behind-why-louisiana-voted-against-a-ban-on-slavery/ https://lailluminator.com/2022/11/17/the-story-behind-why-lo... [6] https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-investigation-c6f0eb4747963283316e494eadf08c4e https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-inve...
- jgalt212 2y ago
  > You can argue it's involuntary servitude instead of slavery but to most people that's a meaningless distinction. The purchase and sale of humans, or the lack of such transactions is a meaningless distinction?
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    The purchase and sale of humans, or the lack of such transactions is a meaningless distinction? by which definition of slavery do we have “purchase and sale of humans” as part of that definition?! Article 1(1) of the 1926 Slavery Convention: “Slavery is the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised.” just because you are not purchased/sold does not mean your condition cannot be defined as slavery
whoitwas 2y ago
In the US police and prisons are directly derived from slave patrols. This is history and factual. In prison and jail inmates work for rates like $.25 an hour. Many places in the south prison inmates are contracted out to work minimum wage jobs and denied parole. Recidivism rates for people incarcerated more than 6 months is something like 66% for one year post release. There are private prisons that benefit from more prisoners. In many places the jail or prison is the largest and best employer. ... .. . You can go on forever. It's maybe getting better in some places, but not where they used to have slavery.
- nyolfen 2y ago
  > In the US police and prisons are directly derived from slave patrols. This is history and factual. and human rights are derived from feudal rights. okay, and? is this just supposed to make you feel bad with scary words? > Recidivism rates for people incarcerated more than 6 months is something like 66% for one year post release. this sounds very much like you are mixing up cause and effect. is it surprising that someone who commits more serious crimes is more likely to commit further crimes?
  - defrost 2y ago
    "Crims are going to crim again" is likely the shallowest take possible in such discussions. What's relevant here is comparing different prison systems wrt Recidivism. eg: Nine out of 10 South African criminals reoffend, while in Finland it’s 1 in 3. This is why https://theconversation.com/nine-out-of-10-south-african-criminals-reoffend-while-in-finland-its-1-in-3-this-is-why-218131 https://theconversation.com/nine-out-of-10-south-african-cri...
    - DAGdug 2y ago
      Did you click through to glance through the paper linked? I was hoping the author would posit a causal model, adjust for a few different factors, and have something robust. Nope, nothing - just a wall of text even quoting Derrida. Empiricism is slowly dying, in large part due to truth seeking becoming subservient to confirmation bias.

Read the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Slavery wasn't outlawed in the US, just made a monopoly franchise of the US government. It isn't coincidental that so many prisons were built on former plantation property, or that the incarceration rate of black men is so high.

jmyeet 2y ago
Not sure who's downvoting this because the comment is objectively correct [1][2][3]. The practice of "convict leasing" is modern day slavery. This system should be abolished or, at a minimum, the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor. [1]: https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-prison-labor-is-modern-day-slavery/ https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-prison... [2]: https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-slavery-alive-perspectives-from-the-prison-where-slavery-never-ended/ https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-sla... [3]: https://www.newsweek.com/book-american-slavery-continued-until-1941-93231 https://www.newsweek.com/book-american-slavery-continued-unt...
- bdangubic 2y ago
  people that don’t have a fucking clue about slavery in their own country are the ones downvoting
- smsm42 2y ago
  > the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor. Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs (leaving aside the question whether it really does, it is the intent). The prisoner has these basic physical needs already taken care of. Therefore, it makes no sense to pay both prisoner and a free low-wage worker the same. Moreover, if it were the situation, the very next day every paper would have a headline "Workers are being paid prisoner wages - outrage!" However, if the prisoners are allowed to work for commercial for-profit companies, the company that benefits from this work should be asked to cover a substantial part of the prisoner's sustenance bill - which also would be to the taxpayer's benefit. Of course, participation in such programs should be strictly voluntary - I imagine prison life is not too fun, so there should be a number of people who would agree to do it even for a relatively very low wage. That said, it could be incentivized e.g. by taking successful work experience into account for parole decisions, etc.
  - worik 2y ago
    > Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs * Many people locked up (in my country) are their families breadwinners * Many would if they could pay compensation, and victims would, if they could, receive it and improve their lives * Many leave prison with nothing. The ones not in the first clause often do not have families, nor friends left on the outside * Prisoners have, or can learn, valuable skills Put it all together, please. People (our fellow citizens, our comrades) should be sent to prison as punishment. Not for punishment. If they do not come out better than they went in (often a low bar) then we have failed. We can do so much better
    - musicale 2y ago
      Good points. And as you note, the punishment is (or should be) being deprived of one's freedom, not being mistreated in prison. It occurs to me that prisoners are usually exempt from child support payments (for example), but it might be better if they could actually contribute.
    - 2y ago
- tzs 2y ago
  I would guess it is being downvoted because while what it says about the 13th Amendment is correct it isn't really relevant to the question it was answering. The question was whether or not US prisons use slavery. He answered the question of whether or not it would be legal for US prisons to use slavery. While is it legal, it is not mandated. A proper answer would examine the labor requirements actually in use in US prisons, compare them to labor requirements in other first world country prisons (and yes, several other first world countries make prisoners work), define just what they mean by slavery, and then try to make the case that the differences between what the US does and what other first world countries with required prison labor do is enough to make it slavery in the US.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
like_any_other 2y ago
> The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Penal labor is not exclusive to the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labour > It isn't coincidental that so many prisons were built on former plantation property, or that the incarceration rate of black men is so high. 32% of prisoners are Black: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... 56% of homicide perpetrators are Black: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S... Using homicide as indicator of general criminality because it's hard to fudge the numbers or inflate them with over-policing. Granted the correspondence is surely not perfect, but given such a parsimonious explanation, we'd need strong justification to reach for conspiratorial alternatives.

nashashmi 2y ago

Slave is sometimes also referred to as captured person or captive. An imprisoned person is a captive.

ceejayoz 2y ago
There's usually a work component, though. An imprisoned person may or may not be enslaved as part of that imprisonment. If they get paid a reasonable wage, they're a prisoner with a job. If they're not forced to work, they're a prisoner but not a slave.
- Aloisius 2y ago
  Slavery was a condition, usually a legal status, where someone's autonomy was stripped from them. The work component only existed because why else would one want a slave? If someone born into slavery died before they could walk, they still were a slave. If an old slave was allowed to retire without working again, that didn't stop them from being a slave.
jgalt212 2y ago
But there's no purchase or sale of a human. So where's the slavery?
- SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
  Only chattel slavery involves purchase or sale of a human. Any forced labor is slavery, it just might not be chattel slavery.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Prison labor is not limited to inside prisons: https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-investigation-alabama-takeaways-7ec182c7b1b604b1e4cb2ffb6e2a0f0a https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-inve... Your labor should not have financial considerations to the prison. You taking a sick day should not risk punishment up to and included increased security points and should not impact any prison employees pay/bonus (COs/AWs/Ws often get bonus' based on inmate labor metrics). Security points are the 'nice sanitized' way penal systems threaten violence on inmates. If you get points you go to a more dangerous yard where your safety will be threatened and you will get hurt. Anything that can incur security points is a implicit threat of violence against inmates. Inmates should not be threatened with violence for taking sick days/losing a non-prison job. Inmates jobs should not include the possibility of overtime because inmates CAN NOT REFUSE it. Inmates should not be threatened with violence (security points) if they do not want to work overtime of need a sick day. Inmate jobs should not include zero hour jobs (jobs where the schedule constantly changes and you are not guaranteed any hours) because inmates CAN NOT control their schedules and it works out to be a nightmare for them logistics wise. For example leading to inabilities to file legal mail (inability to schedule around mail room hours), missed meals (chow hall hours are fixed with almost no accommodation other than SHU/medical meals), excessive isolation during transfers, missed 'move times' resulting in no personal recreation time, etc.

yyyyz 2y ago

[dead]

bdangubic 2y ago

you seriously asking this or joking?????!

Brybry 2y ago

To add to sibling comments about the 13th amendment's exception clause (which is what legally allows forced prison labor[1]): forced prison labor has been a state-level ballot issue in recent years. Colorado voted to abolish slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crime in 2018 (though enforcement is reportedly poor). [2][3] In other states voters have upheld forced labor[4] but sometimes it's because of issues with how it's worded[5]. You can argue it's involuntary servitude instead of slavery but to most people that's a meaningless distinction. Especially while they are being beaten for not working.[6] [1] https://action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-labor-prisons https://action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-lab... [2] https://www.npr.org/2018/11/07/665295736/colorado-votes-to-abolish-slavery-2-years-after-similar-amendment-failed https://www.npr.org/2018/11/07/665295736/colorado-votes-to-a... [3] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-forced-labor-movement https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for... [4] https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/11/california-election-result-proposition-6-fails/ https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/11/california... [5] https://lailluminator.com/2022/11/17/the-story-behind-why-louisiana-voted-against-a-ban-on-slavery/ https://lailluminator.com/2022/11/17/the-story-behind-why-lo... [6] https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-investigation-c6f0eb4747963283316e494eadf08c4e https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-inve...

jgalt212 2y ago
> You can argue it's involuntary servitude instead of slavery but to most people that's a meaningless distinction. The purchase and sale of humans, or the lack of such transactions is a meaningless distinction?
- bdangubic 2y ago
  The purchase and sale of humans, or the lack of such transactions is a meaningless distinction? by which definition of slavery do we have “purchase and sale of humans” as part of that definition?! Article 1(1) of the 1926 Slavery Convention: “Slavery is the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised.” just because you are not purchased/sold does not mean your condition cannot be defined as slavery

whoitwas 2y ago

In the US police and prisons are directly derived from slave patrols. This is history and factual. In prison and jail inmates work for rates like $.25 an hour. Many places in the south prison inmates are contracted out to work minimum wage jobs and denied parole. Recidivism rates for people incarcerated more than 6 months is something like 66% for one year post release. There are private prisons that benefit from more prisoners. In many places the jail or prison is the largest and best employer. ... .. . You can go on forever. It's maybe getting better in some places, but not where they used to have slavery.

nyolfen 2y ago
> In the US police and prisons are directly derived from slave patrols. This is history and factual. and human rights are derived from feudal rights. okay, and? is this just supposed to make you feel bad with scary words? > Recidivism rates for people incarcerated more than 6 months is something like 66% for one year post release. this sounds very much like you are mixing up cause and effect. is it surprising that someone who commits more serious crimes is more likely to commit further crimes?
- defrost 2y ago
  "Crims are going to crim again" is likely the shallowest take possible in such discussions. What's relevant here is comparing different prison systems wrt Recidivism. eg: Nine out of 10 South African criminals reoffend, while in Finland it’s 1 in 3. This is why https://theconversation.com/nine-out-of-10-south-african-criminals-reoffend-while-in-finland-its-1-in-3-this-is-why-218131 https://theconversation.com/nine-out-of-10-south-african-cri...
  - DAGdug 2y ago
    Did you click through to glance through the paper linked? I was hoping the author would posit a causal model, adjust for a few different factors, and have something robust. Nope, nothing - just a wall of text even quoting Derrida. Empiricism is slowly dying, in large part due to truth seeking becoming subservient to confirmation bias.