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Very interesting build. Safety-wise it seems fine with the blatant exception of welding the steering column. A steering column could see very high torque, espec

Very interesting build. Safety-wise it seems fine with the blatant exception of welding the steering column. A steering column could see very high torque, especially if e.g. power steering fails. The author even alludes to this twice but does not address it directly.

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
> Safety-wise it seems fine with the blatant exception of welding the steering column. See the fatal accident of Ayrton Senna. Shortened and welded steering column was exactly the cause of the accident.
- echoangle 2y ago
  Looks like they did a bad job at it though: > Lorenzini stated: "It had been badly welded together about a third of the way down and couldn't stand the strain of the race. We discovered scratches on the crack in the steering rod. It seemed like the job had been done in a hurry but I can't say how long before the race. Someone had tried to smooth over the joint following the welding. I have never seen anything like it. I believe the rod was faulty and probably cracked even during the warm-up. Moments before the crash only a tiny piece was left connected and therefore the car didn't respond in the bend." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ayrton_Senna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ayrton_Senna And the forces on a formula 1 steering column are also higher than on a road car, I imagine. A proper weld should be very strong, I don’t think welding a steering column in itself is bad.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    If a professional race team cannot make that weld properly, why do we have faith in amateurs doing it for the first time?
    - echoangle 2y ago
      If that’s your bar for DIY stuff, you couldn’t do anything at all. With enough time, everything will be messed up by a professional at some point. If some electrician makes a mistake when wiring a house and it burns down, does that mean that I can never trust myself to wire something myself? Arguably you have an advantage over the professionals because at least you’re motivated to do it properly because it’s your own life on the line. Edit: for another half-serious analogy: if a professional race car driver ever crashes while driving on a regular road, does that mean I can’t drive myself? Because even a professional made a mistake while doing it, so how can I be trusted to do it better?
    - GuB-42 2y ago
      A professional race team working under time pressure on a car going 3 times faster and where weight is a concern. Amateurs can take their time, it makes all the difference.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      A professional race team is trying to build things that are just barely adequate and are working under crazy deadlines. Amateurs are free to throw more metal at the problem.
- djaychela 2y ago
  If done badly, yes. There are lots of competition cars (rally cars I have direct experience of) with modified and welded columns that haven't had issues in extreme circumstances. Providing the welding is done to a high standard it is more than strong enough. Bear in mind that all modern steering columns have joints in them for crash safety reasons and they are often welded at the factory.
- jamesholden 2y ago
  That was a hell of a wiki dive. Thanks. Tragic story :(
cenamus 2y ago
Do you think the weld would fail or what are you alluding to? I'd assume that relatively large weld surface could stand up to the 200-ish Nm or however much it actually it is easily
- binoct 2y ago
  It’s not so much that a weld _can’t_ be sufficiently strong to be safe in a steering column, it’s the QA and validation needed to be sure the weld was done properly. Obviously it’s possible the folks involved in this have the experience and equipment required to do that, but it’s unlikely. Now, how much of a risk there is, and whether or not it should be allowed on public roads where the failure could kill them and/or other people is a question for the local society and legal system :)
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    The QA in this case is that the welder knows he doesn't suck and he knows when he does a good job. A 3/4 or so (approx the size most steering stuff is) shaft is going to be more than capable of handling steering wheel torque Not everything needs to be treated like a nuclear reactor.
    - binoct 2y ago
      Luckily welders do not suffer from superiority bias.
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        With a competent welder it's basically never a question of whether or not the weld was good. It's a question of what's sufficient for the application. If you care enough you can make perfection happen but caring that much on everything is time consuming and unnecessary. X-ray and other inspection processes are mostly there to force people to behave like they give a crap.
Hilift 2y ago
That's why they call it "Carbage". "The daily value of your car should not exceed 1,000 Euros and the car must be at least 20 years old." Also it completed the activity without failure. https://www.carbagerun.nl/event/winter-editie-2025-naar-helsinki/ https://www.carbagerun.nl/event/winter-editie-2025-naar-hels...
- t4h4 2y ago
  Also relevant: 24 Hours of Lemons [0] where they race "lemons" worth $500 [0]: https://24hoursoflemons.com/ https://24hoursoflemons.com/
rollcat 2y ago
Danger is the nature of this kind of "sport". Friend & I were hitch hiking thru Albania, we ran into a "carbage" race from Poland to Greece. Both of had to travel in different cars (and our backpacks in a third), because otherwise the vehicles wouldn't make it uphill. We've passed by another team who have lost a wheel (it fell off and rolled down a hill at night - effectively got irretrievably lost); they didn't have a spare, so they just sold their car for something like €25. Fun times.

rad_gruchalski 2y ago

> Safety-wise it seems fine with the blatant exception of welding the steering column. See the fatal accident of Ayrton Senna. Shortened and welded steering column was exactly the cause of the accident.

echoangle 2y ago
Looks like they did a bad job at it though: > Lorenzini stated: "It had been badly welded together about a third of the way down and couldn't stand the strain of the race. We discovered scratches on the crack in the steering rod. It seemed like the job had been done in a hurry but I can't say how long before the race. Someone had tried to smooth over the joint following the welding. I have never seen anything like it. I believe the rod was faulty and probably cracked even during the warm-up. Moments before the crash only a tiny piece was left connected and therefore the car didn't respond in the bend." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ayrton_Senna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ayrton_Senna And the forces on a formula 1 steering column are also higher than on a road car, I imagine. A proper weld should be very strong, I don’t think welding a steering column in itself is bad.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dotancohen 2y ago
  If a professional race team cannot make that weld properly, why do we have faith in amateurs doing it for the first time?
  - echoangle 2y ago
    If that’s your bar for DIY stuff, you couldn’t do anything at all. With enough time, everything will be messed up by a professional at some point. If some electrician makes a mistake when wiring a house and it burns down, does that mean that I can never trust myself to wire something myself? Arguably you have an advantage over the professionals because at least you’re motivated to do it properly because it’s your own life on the line. Edit: for another half-serious analogy: if a professional race car driver ever crashes while driving on a regular road, does that mean I can’t drive myself? Because even a professional made a mistake while doing it, so how can I be trusted to do it better?
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    A professional race team working under time pressure on a car going 3 times faster and where weight is a concern. Amateurs can take their time, it makes all the difference.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    A professional race team is trying to build things that are just barely adequate and are working under crazy deadlines. Amateurs are free to throw more metal at the problem.
djaychela 2y ago
If done badly, yes. There are lots of competition cars (rally cars I have direct experience of) with modified and welded columns that haven't had issues in extreme circumstances. Providing the welding is done to a high standard it is more than strong enough. Bear in mind that all modern steering columns have joints in them for crash safety reasons and they are often welded at the factory.
jamesholden 2y ago
That was a hell of a wiki dive. Thanks. Tragic story :(

cenamus 2y ago

Do you think the weld would fail or what are you alluding to? I'd assume that relatively large weld surface could stand up to the 200-ish Nm or however much it actually it is easily

binoct 2y ago
It’s not so much that a weld _can’t_ be sufficiently strong to be safe in a steering column, it’s the QA and validation needed to be sure the weld was done properly. Obviously it’s possible the folks involved in this have the experience and equipment required to do that, but it’s unlikely. Now, how much of a risk there is, and whether or not it should be allowed on public roads where the failure could kill them and/or other people is a question for the local society and legal system :)
- potato3732842 2y ago
  The QA in this case is that the welder knows he doesn't suck and he knows when he does a good job. A 3/4 or so (approx the size most steering stuff is) shaft is going to be more than capable of handling steering wheel torque Not everything needs to be treated like a nuclear reactor.
  - binoct 2y ago
    Luckily welders do not suffer from superiority bias.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      With a competent welder it's basically never a question of whether or not the weld was good. It's a question of what's sufficient for the application. If you care enough you can make perfection happen but caring that much on everything is time consuming and unnecessary. X-ray and other inspection processes are mostly there to force people to behave like they give a crap.

Hilift 2y ago

That's why they call it "Carbage". "The daily value of your car should not exceed 1,000 Euros and the car must be at least 20 years old." Also it completed the activity without failure. https://www.carbagerun.nl/event/winter-editie-2025-naar-helsinki/ https://www.carbagerun.nl/event/winter-editie-2025-naar-hels...

t4h4 2y ago
Also relevant: 24 Hours of Lemons [0] where they race "lemons" worth $500 [0]: https://24hoursoflemons.com/ https://24hoursoflemons.com/

rollcat 2y ago

Danger is the nature of this kind of "sport". Friend & I were hitch hiking thru Albania, we ran into a "carbage" race from Poland to Greece. Both of had to travel in different cars (and our backpacks in a third), because otherwise the vehicles wouldn't make it uphill. We've passed by another team who have lost a wheel (it fell off and rolled down a hill at night - effectively got irretrievably lost); they didn't have a spare, so they just sold their car for something like €25. Fun times.