5 ms·

Two unanswered question: why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? And why do the cameras keep moving around?

by mannyv 2y ago

kaonwarb 2y ago
The space in the middle is dominated by a big battery in any smartphone I've seen. I suspect it would be less efficient to break that up.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  FWIW Xiaomi has flagships with split batteries for faster charge. e.g.: https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-11t-pro-120w-xiaomi-hypercharge/ https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-11t-pro-120w-xiaomi...
klipt 2y ago
I think I'd accidentally stick my thumb/finger in front of a central camera even more often than I already do with corner cameras!
snowwrestler 2y ago
> why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? This is one of those things that doesn't seem like it should matter, but it does. If the lens is mounted in the exact center of the body, the images come out looking unbalanced. To produce balanced images, you have to offset the lens. Even very expensive pro mirrorless bodies are offset; that is, if you look directly down the center of the lens, you'll notice there is more camera body sticking out on one side than the other. This is called the chirality of the optical path and it is surprisingly difficult to predict analytically. Companies will typically design the optical path, prototype it, and mount it on a jig to precisely measure the chirality. From this, they design the body with the proper offset. Chirality is more noticeable the smaller the sensor and the shorter the lens. So on smart phones, which put tiny sensors behind wide-angle lenses, they have to get the offset just right. This explains why the lenses are in slightly different places on the body every time Apple updates their cameras.
- nakedrobot2 2y ago
  What on earth did I just read? Is this ai slop that I just read? None of this is correct or true.
- jval43 2y ago
  Your comment makes no sense. Every mirrorless body has a center marking for the middle of the sensor, so the camera can be mounted exactly centered on a tripod. It's actually important for photos to be exactly on axis if you want to do panoramas or stitching. The only reason the body is not exactly symmetrical is engineering and ergonomics. Many point and shoots of the past in fact had the lens exactly in the center. And "chirality of the optical path" is not anything related to this, in fact the term is not usable in this context at all.
- Toutouxc 2y ago
  I vouched for this comment just so I could reply to it. The entire thing is so fascinatingly, unbelievably, OBVIOUSLY, violently incorrect in every single way, yet it doesn’t feel like straight GPT output. It was also posted by a person with a huge karma. I want to understand what happened.
  - snowwrestler 2y ago
    Thanks for vouching. I guess I figured people would realize I was joking based on how ridiculous it was.
    - Toutouxc 2y ago
      That... didn't occur to me at all. Nowadays stuff like this usually a LLM running amok. :( Sorry about that.
      - snowwrestler 2y ago
        An LLM running amok is probably not a bad description of me after a couple of drinks, actually.
ipv6ipv4 2y ago
If we are playing with phone camera form factors, I vote for thinking outside the phone. Remove the camera entirely from the phone, and put it in a separate cylindrical device; a smaller incarnation of Apple's ancient iSight webcam. Stuff in better optics, put controls on the cylinder, and allow viewing the image from my watch when taking a photo/video. So I can leave the phone at home...
- Someone 2y ago
  I think that would be a niche product, at best. Most users would want to use the screen of their smartphone as a viewfinder. That either means using both hands or requiring a way to attach the thing to the smartphone. Also, to do the image processing, that cylinder would need to have most of the processing power of the iPhone and, thus, a fairly large battery.
  - ipv6ipv4 2y ago
    Yes, it is niche today. I’m hoping for a less phone screen oriented future.
- kalleboo 2y ago
  Sony actually did something like this once back in 2013. It could work independently or clip onto your phone as a viewfinder Low end model https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscqx10 https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscqx10 High end model https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-cybershot-dsc-qx100 https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-cybershot-dsc-qx100
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    Tbh answer is usually "Sony did that, but nobody cared". They also did the camera in the middle thing with the Xperia Pro. It even had adjustable aperture! Sony has consistently been innovating in this space but has always had basically insignificant market share. People keep complaining about mundane updates and AI crap but they won't buy phones from the one manufacturer that bucks this trend. MKBHD has a couple of videos about it (regarding the Xperia 1vi iirc). My Sony phone has a 4k 120hz oled screen, notification led, headphone jack, fully manual camera mode, no bloatware or ai crap, great battery life (never had to charge my phone during the day). They had the battery save features years before other manufacturers. They've been doing this consistently for years. I don't know how they keep doing it, but I'm glad they do.
asciimov 2y ago
> why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? Because when you pick it up, your hand is covering up the middle of the phone. However the top quarter is unobstructed. > And why do the cameras keep moving around? Easy way to tell models apart.
- dylan604 2y ago
  > Easy way to tell models apart. is that the reason or just a convenient side effect? the last two models had to move the lenses around slightly so they could capture whatever they called their stereo AR/VR type acquisition so the pupil distances worked correctly. after that, there's only so many ways to arrange 2 or 3 lenses.
mcintyre1994 2y ago
Another reason that comes to mind is the camera bump. If you put the camera in the middle then it’d kinda rest on that on a flat surface and wobble. With the camera in a corner it sits on the camera bump + the opposite corner which is a bit more stable and less obvious.
makeitdouble 2y ago
That's not the market they're going after, even with all the ads and promotion. It's more an aspirational positioning than a hardcore one. For instance Xiaomi is a lot more serious about the photo part (and they also sell a lot less as well, this model was only noticed in photography circles) https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-14-ultra/ https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-14-ultra/
jdietrich 2y ago
Packaging. A phone is absolutely stuffed with components, most of the market highly values thinness, so every mm^3 is jealously fought over. Putting the camera in the middle might mean making the phone bigger, having to shrink the battery, or putting antennas in less-than-ideal places. It's design trade-offs all the way down.

Two unanswered question: why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? And why do the cameras keep moving around?

by mannyv 2y ago

Two unanswered question: why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? And why do the cameras keep moving around?

The space in the middle is dominated by a big battery in any smartphone I've seen. I suspect it would be less efficient to break that up.

makeitdouble 2y ago
FWIW Xiaomi has flagships with split batteries for faster charge. e.g.: https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-11t-pro-120w-xiaomi-hypercharge/ https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-11t-pro-120w-xiaomi...

klipt 2y ago

I think I'd accidentally stick my thumb/finger in front of a central camera even more often than I already do with corner cameras!

snowwrestler 2y ago

> why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? This is one of those things that doesn't seem like it should matter, but it does. If the lens is mounted in the exact center of the body, the images come out looking unbalanced. To produce balanced images, you have to offset the lens. Even very expensive pro mirrorless bodies are offset; that is, if you look directly down the center of the lens, you'll notice there is more camera body sticking out on one side than the other. This is called the chirality of the optical path and it is surprisingly difficult to predict analytically. Companies will typically design the optical path, prototype it, and mount it on a jig to precisely measure the chirality. From this, they design the body with the proper offset. Chirality is more noticeable the smaller the sensor and the shorter the lens. So on smart phones, which put tiny sensors behind wide-angle lenses, they have to get the offset just right. This explains why the lenses are in slightly different places on the body every time Apple updates their cameras.

nakedrobot2 2y ago
What on earth did I just read? Is this ai slop that I just read? None of this is correct or true.
jval43 2y ago
Your comment makes no sense. Every mirrorless body has a center marking for the middle of the sensor, so the camera can be mounted exactly centered on a tripod. It's actually important for photos to be exactly on axis if you want to do panoramas or stitching. The only reason the body is not exactly symmetrical is engineering and ergonomics. Many point and shoots of the past in fact had the lens exactly in the center. And "chirality of the optical path" is not anything related to this, in fact the term is not usable in this context at all.
Toutouxc 2y ago
I vouched for this comment just so I could reply to it. The entire thing is so fascinatingly, unbelievably, OBVIOUSLY, violently incorrect in every single way, yet it doesn’t feel like straight GPT output. It was also posted by a person with a huge karma. I want to understand what happened.
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  Thanks for vouching. I guess I figured people would realize I was joking based on how ridiculous it was.
  - Toutouxc 2y ago
    That... didn't occur to me at all. Nowadays stuff like this usually a LLM running amok. :( Sorry about that.
    - snowwrestler 2y ago
      An LLM running amok is probably not a bad description of me after a couple of drinks, actually.

ipv6ipv4 2y ago

If we are playing with phone camera form factors, I vote for thinking outside the phone. Remove the camera entirely from the phone, and put it in a separate cylindrical device; a smaller incarnation of Apple's ancient iSight webcam. Stuff in better optics, put controls on the cylinder, and allow viewing the image from my watch when taking a photo/video. So I can leave the phone at home...

Someone 2y ago
I think that would be a niche product, at best. Most users would want to use the screen of their smartphone as a viewfinder. That either means using both hands or requiring a way to attach the thing to the smartphone. Also, to do the image processing, that cylinder would need to have most of the processing power of the iPhone and, thus, a fairly large battery.
- ipv6ipv4 2y ago
  Yes, it is niche today. I’m hoping for a less phone screen oriented future.
kalleboo 2y ago
Sony actually did something like this once back in 2013. It could work independently or clip onto your phone as a viewfinder Low end model https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscqx10 https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscqx10 High end model https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-cybershot-dsc-qx100 https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-cybershot-dsc-qx100
- globular-toast 2y ago
  Tbh answer is usually "Sony did that, but nobody cared". They also did the camera in the middle thing with the Xperia Pro. It even had adjustable aperture! Sony has consistently been innovating in this space but has always had basically insignificant market share. People keep complaining about mundane updates and AI crap but they won't buy phones from the one manufacturer that bucks this trend. MKBHD has a couple of videos about it (regarding the Xperia 1vi iirc). My Sony phone has a 4k 120hz oled screen, notification led, headphone jack, fully manual camera mode, no bloatware or ai crap, great battery life (never had to charge my phone during the day). They had the battery save features years before other manufacturers. They've been doing this consistently for years. I don't know how they keep doing it, but I'm glad they do.

asciimov 2y ago

> why not put the camera in the middle of the phone? Because when you pick it up, your hand is covering up the middle of the phone. However the top quarter is unobstructed. > And why do the cameras keep moving around? Easy way to tell models apart.

dylan604 2y ago
> Easy way to tell models apart. is that the reason or just a convenient side effect? the last two models had to move the lenses around slightly so they could capture whatever they called their stereo AR/VR type acquisition so the pupil distances worked correctly. after that, there's only so many ways to arrange 2 or 3 lenses.

mcintyre1994 2y ago

Another reason that comes to mind is the camera bump. If you put the camera in the middle then it’d kinda rest on that on a flat surface and wobble. With the camera in a corner it sits on the camera bump + the opposite corner which is a bit more stable and less obvious.

makeitdouble 2y ago

That's not the market they're going after, even with all the ads and promotion. It's more an aspirational positioning than a hardcore one. For instance Xiaomi is a lot more serious about the photo part (and they also sell a lot less as well, this model was only noticed in photography circles) https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-14-ultra/ https://www.mi.com/global/product/xiaomi-14-ultra/

jdietrich 2y ago

Packaging. A phone is absolutely stuffed with components, most of the market highly values thinness, so every mm^3 is jealously fought over. Putting the camera in the middle might mean making the phone bigger, having to shrink the battery, or putting antennas in less-than-ideal places. It's design trade-offs all the way down.