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> And most of it misplaced. I've seen that tactic to try to discredit real, valid concerns with immigration, either by lumping it with racism (which definitely

> And most of it misplaced. I've seen that tactic to try to discredit real, valid concerns with immigration, either by lumping it with racism (which definitely exists, but is not the only argument against unfettered immigration), or by pretending something else is the problem (something else may also be a problem, but that doesn't make the problems that people are worried about with high levels of immigration invalid). In my understanding, the backlash against immigration in Canada is relatively recent, and it's basically caused by the fact that Canada took in a huge number of immigrants, historically speaking, in recent years. This results in: 1. People feeling likes many immigrant communities are creating enclaves instead of adopting the culture of Canada. 2. Many recent immigrants are unskilled, resulting in a larger burden on provincial-based social services. When you couple that with astronomical housing prices and a stagnant economy with rising unemployment where many people see less opportunity, it's not hard to see why citizens are demanding lower rates of immigration.

femiagbabiaka 2y ago
> People feeling likes many immigrant communities are creating enclaves instead of adopting the culture of Canada. Every immigrant community creates enclaves. Quebec is an enclave the size of a province. > Many recent immigrants are unskilled, resulting in a larger burden on provincial-based social services. I can find NO evidence for this whatsoever, do you have any?
- medo-bear 2y ago
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- dragon-hn 2y ago
  It is important to differentiate between immigrants vs temporary workers and foreign students. What Canadians seem to have issue with is the latter, which is being abused by Canadian companies. The anger should be aimed at the rich in Canada abusing the system, as well as the paid for politicians enabling the abuse. It shouldn’t be aimed at the newcomers.
- 3vidence 2y ago
  Hard to say Quebec is an enclave.... It is quite literally the founding half of the country.
  - femiagbabiaka 2y ago
    It’s an immigrant community that refused to integrate into the culture that existed there before them. If that sounds ridiculous it is because this entire conversation is ridiculous.
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      > It’s an immigrant community that refused to integrate into the culture that existed there before them. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, you're in need of a major history lesson, like how the British first basically committed genocide with the expulsion of the Acadia French, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians, and then when they realized that was a collosal fuck up they explicitly put policies in place to not expel the rest of the French in Quebec and deliberately treat them as second class citizens.
      - femiagbabiaka 2y ago
        Where did the Acadians come from? Sounds like another immigrant enclave.
        3vidence 2y ago
        Again I think you might need to educate yourself on Canadian history. The French that founded Quebec where here predated the English that eventually founded the county of Upper / Lower Canada... You might have a misunderstanding of what the term immigrant means.
        femiagbabiaka 2y ago
        No, I understand perfectly. The difference between your definition and mine is that your definition of immigrant is “anyone who is not white”.
Barrin92 2y ago
>When you couple that with astronomical housing prices and a stagnant economy When you compare Canada, the US or some of the higher immigration countries in Europe to developed countries without immigration you'd wish you'd have price increase problems. Japan, sometimes hailed as an alternative to immigration is now so poor and old that middle class Westerners travel there like they traveled to a middle income country twenty years ago. If you think Canada is stagnant you haven't been to places where a quarter of the population is aged over 60. Immigration problems and friction are real but they absolutely pale to the economic disaster that low birth rate aging economies experience. Without significant migration you're looking forward to decades of deflation, politics dominated by people who raise pensions and basically no entrepreneurship. Cultural and housing problems are fixable (just build more housing), dying out is not.
- rwultsch 2y ago
  Oddly enough I am visiting Japan right now. There are lots of foreign workers in service jobs. They speak zone language and don’t jay walk. Prices feel like a middle income country, but that is just the Yen sucking. Otherwise it feels very first world.
  - Barrin92 2y ago
    >Prices feel like a middle income country, but that is just the Yen sucking No it isn't. In purchasing power terms Japan has been, or is about to be overtaken by Poland and Slovakia [1]. This is largely due to demographics and the declining share of the working age population. There is nothing that impoverishes countries more. Gradual decline feels fine for a while, until it doesn't when the bulk of the workforce ages out. [1]https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2024/07/polands-ppp-income-is-likely-to-exceed-that-of-japanby-2026.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2024/07/po...
    - rawgabbit 2y ago
      Japan demographic crisis is due to a mismanaged economy where many Japanese leave the country to find work. They are also not interested in mass immigration. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/11/12/perceptions-of-immigrants-immigration-and-emigration/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/11/12/perceptions-of...
protocolture 2y ago
In Australia up to 70% of the cost of a home is dictated by zoning and land release issues. 70%. Thats not "Something else" thats "The majority of the issue" Immigration is already controlled here so that its roughly just backfill for population growth targets. State governments are supposed to release enough land to meet population growth targets. They have never met these land release targets. So "Immigration" is already meant to be factored in as one of many factors, but isn't, and that immigration is a tiny % of the overall problem. To focus on immigration as the entire issue, as happens quite a bit here, is fundamentally racist. And quite obviously so. I honestly couldn't give 2 shits about enclaves. I live in a region where the australian government has dumped every refugee population since the 70s and uses it as a baseline for targeted welfare studies. This worst part of living here is the halal pepperoni.
- pcchristie 2y ago
  Immigration may be "controlled" in the sense that there's rules around it, but it's at record highs (Net Overseas Migration). This is a huge driver of housing prices. No sane person is focusing on it as the "entire" issue, but it's one of the largest drivers, and it's not racist to notice that. To decry it as racist out of hand is precisely the problem.
  - protocolture 2y ago
    Its at record highs because its backfilling a population growth target that had more space. Its not a "Huge" driver of housing prices, its a rounding error off the back of the fact that the states refuse to meet land release targets. Targets they signed up to. And its completely irrelevant to zoning issues. Minimizing the actual issue in favor of reacting to race, man there's a term for that.

femiagbabiaka 2y ago

> People feeling likes many immigrant communities are creating enclaves instead of adopting the culture of Canada. Every immigrant community creates enclaves. Quebec is an enclave the size of a province. > Many recent immigrants are unskilled, resulting in a larger burden on provincial-based social services. I can find NO evidence for this whatsoever, do you have any?

medo-bear 2y ago
[dead]
dragon-hn 2y ago
It is important to differentiate between immigrants vs temporary workers and foreign students. What Canadians seem to have issue with is the latter, which is being abused by Canadian companies. The anger should be aimed at the rich in Canada abusing the system, as well as the paid for politicians enabling the abuse. It shouldn’t be aimed at the newcomers.
3vidence 2y ago
Hard to say Quebec is an enclave.... It is quite literally the founding half of the country.
- femiagbabiaka 2y ago
  It’s an immigrant community that refused to integrate into the culture that existed there before them. If that sounds ridiculous it is because this entire conversation is ridiculous.
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    > It’s an immigrant community that refused to integrate into the culture that existed there before them. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, you're in need of a major history lesson, like how the British first basically committed genocide with the expulsion of the Acadia French, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians, and then when they realized that was a collosal fuck up they explicitly put policies in place to not expel the rest of the French in Quebec and deliberately treat them as second class citizens.
    - femiagbabiaka 2y ago
      Where did the Acadians come from? Sounds like another immigrant enclave.
      - 3vidence 2y ago
        Again I think you might need to educate yourself on Canadian history. The French that founded Quebec where here predated the English that eventually founded the county of Upper / Lower Canada... You might have a misunderstanding of what the term immigrant means.
        femiagbabiaka 2y ago
        No, I understand perfectly. The difference between your definition and mine is that your definition of immigrant is “anyone who is not white”.

Barrin92 2y ago

>When you couple that with astronomical housing prices and a stagnant economy When you compare Canada, the US or some of the higher immigration countries in Europe to developed countries without immigration you'd wish you'd have price increase problems. Japan, sometimes hailed as an alternative to immigration is now so poor and old that middle class Westerners travel there like they traveled to a middle income country twenty years ago. If you think Canada is stagnant you haven't been to places where a quarter of the population is aged over 60. Immigration problems and friction are real but they absolutely pale to the economic disaster that low birth rate aging economies experience. Without significant migration you're looking forward to decades of deflation, politics dominated by people who raise pensions and basically no entrepreneurship. Cultural and housing problems are fixable (just build more housing), dying out is not.

rwultsch 2y ago
Oddly enough I am visiting Japan right now. There are lots of foreign workers in service jobs. They speak zone language and don’t jay walk. Prices feel like a middle income country, but that is just the Yen sucking. Otherwise it feels very first world.
- Barrin92 2y ago
  >Prices feel like a middle income country, but that is just the Yen sucking No it isn't. In purchasing power terms Japan has been, or is about to be overtaken by Poland and Slovakia [1]. This is largely due to demographics and the declining share of the working age population. There is nothing that impoverishes countries more. Gradual decline feels fine for a while, until it doesn't when the bulk of the workforce ages out. [1]https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2024/07/polands-ppp-income-is-likely-to-exceed-that-of-japanby-2026.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2024/07/po...
  - rawgabbit 2y ago
    Japan demographic crisis is due to a mismanaged economy where many Japanese leave the country to find work. They are also not interested in mass immigration. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/11/12/perceptions-of-immigrants-immigration-and-emigration/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/11/12/perceptions-of...

protocolture 2y ago

In Australia up to 70% of the cost of a home is dictated by zoning and land release issues. 70%. Thats not "Something else" thats "The majority of the issue" Immigration is already controlled here so that its roughly just backfill for population growth targets. State governments are supposed to release enough land to meet population growth targets. They have never met these land release targets. So "Immigration" is already meant to be factored in as one of many factors, but isn't, and that immigration is a tiny % of the overall problem. To focus on immigration as the entire issue, as happens quite a bit here, is fundamentally racist. And quite obviously so. I honestly couldn't give 2 shits about enclaves. I live in a region where the australian government has dumped every refugee population since the 70s and uses it as a baseline for targeted welfare studies. This worst part of living here is the halal pepperoni.

pcchristie 2y ago
Immigration may be "controlled" in the sense that there's rules around it, but it's at record highs (Net Overseas Migration). This is a huge driver of housing prices. No sane person is focusing on it as the "entire" issue, but it's one of the largest drivers, and it's not racist to notice that. To decry it as racist out of hand is precisely the problem.
- protocolture 2y ago
  Its at record highs because its backfilling a population growth target that had more space. Its not a "Huge" driver of housing prices, its a rounding error off the back of the fact that the states refuse to meet land release targets. Targets they signed up to. And its completely irrelevant to zoning issues. Minimizing the actual issue in favor of reacting to race, man there's a term for that.