5 ms·

As someone who has lived in the EU for over 20 years, I can say that the Schengen Area is a fantastic thing, whereas the EU itself is a disaster. Civilized coun

by _7acn 2y ago

As someone who has lived in the EU for over 20 years, I can say that the Schengen Area is a fantastic thing, whereas the EU itself is a disaster. Civilized countries should join the Schengen Area but avoid joining the European Union (these are two separate things). They should take an example from Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein - countries that are part of Schengen but not in the EU. Joining the European Union means a complete loss of sovereignty.

gmueckl 2y ago
Factually, the claim of complete loss of sovereignty is just dead wrong. This list details the division of responsibilities between the EU and member states: https://commission.europa.eu/about/role/law/areas-eu-action_en https://commission.europa.eu/about/role/law/areas-eu-action_... This shows how narrow the responsibilities of the EU actually are.
- _7acn 2y ago
  Instead of reading the documentation, let's answer three questions: 1. Can your country introduce any law without asking the EU for approval? 2. Can the EU mandate your country to implement a specific law? 3. Do you still believe your country is sovereign?
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    You've also just described trade agreements.
  - gmueckl 2y ago
    1. Yes, outside the areas where EU has sole responsibility. 2. Yes, within the areas where the EU has exclusive responsibility and to some extent when it shares responsibility with member states. 3. Yes. Any country is free to leave the EU at any time. See Britain.
    - _7acn 2y ago
      In that case, I suggest taking a closer look at the definition of "sovereignty". When it comes to lawmaking, if you say that your country can basically do "almost everything" without the EU's permission, "BUT with certain exceptions" it simply means that it is not sovereign. This is not a matter of opinion but of facts. It's binary — either it is sovereign, or it is not.
      - izacus 2y ago
        You just made up a definition of sovereignty that no nation state on this planet fits.
      - gmueckl 2y ago
        EU countries aren't forced to stick to the union. If they dislike EU decisions, they are free to leave and do their own thing at any time. This is very unlike US states that aren't allowed to secede from their union.
        _7acn 2y ago
        Whether one can opt out or not, whether someone likes it or not, and whether this state was reached voluntarily or by force, is irrelevant here - definition of sovereignty is pretty much clear
  - zapperdulchen 2y ago
    Ad 3. If you believe in the European idea, it is not about my country being sovereign but the European people. There's tension in this for sure. Do the Catalans feel sovereign? The Scots? The Californians?
- zizee 2y ago
  Wasn't the federal government of the US formed with a very narrow mandate, and then ratcheted up control with the the innocuous sounding Interstate Commerce clause? Disclaimer: I am neither American, nor very educated about what I just wrote.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    To a first approximation of US history: yes. Also in the last 100 years via the Supreme Court's primacy.
- mbivert 2y ago
  Strictly speaking, you're correct, but practically speaking, I believe not so much. For example, France lost a key advantage ("competition rules") with nuclear energy essentially because it was considered unfair to other countries. But energetic independence is fundamental in part to economical independence: it's a key aspect of sovereignty. Another example would be the Euro ("monetary policy"): > Give me control over a nation’s currency, and I care not who makes its laws. Or, the fact that external laws (from the UE) can be applied to member countries without approval from the people is IMO another rather clear form of loss of sovereignty: a considerable amount (~20% for France IIRC) of legislation is imposed by external, un-elected bodies.
  - zapperdulchen 2y ago
    Many perceive EU laws as imposed without democratic oversight, but this isn't quite accurate. The European Parliament, elected by EU citizens, is involved in most legislative processes. The EU Council, made up of ministers from elected governments, also plays a key role. It's not how national democracies work, but with no unified European public, this system might be the best compromise for now.
    - mbivert 2y ago
      Let's look in practice[0]: there's 720 seats in total for 2024. France has 81, spread on its local political spectrum [1]; biggest group has 18 seats. So while there's some democratic oversight, the public perception remains reasonable: the representative weight of an individual is severely diluted (divide & conquer, yada yada). As it plays on the democratic oversight perception as well, we could also look at the perception/quality of the locally elected bodies, and their general attitude towards the UE: a great example is [2] ("let's ask the people but do it anyway"). That's to say, I believe there are good reasons for people to perceive EU laws as imposed without democratic oversight. It's not 100% true, but overall, it's not an unfair qualification either. [0]: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/infographic/meps-seats/index_en.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/infographic/meps-seats/index_... [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_d%C3%A9put%C3%A9s_europ%C3%A9ens_de_France_de_la_9e_l%C3%A9gislature https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_d%C3%A9put%C3%A9s_eu... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitution_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitut...

by _7acn 2y ago

gmueckl 2y ago

Factually, the claim of complete loss of sovereignty is just dead wrong. This list details the division of responsibilities between the EU and member states: https://commission.europa.eu/about/role/law/areas-eu-action_en https://commission.europa.eu/about/role/law/areas-eu-action_... This shows how narrow the responsibilities of the EU actually are.

_7acn 2y ago
Instead of reading the documentation, let's answer three questions: 1. Can your country introduce any law without asking the EU for approval? 2. Can the EU mandate your country to implement a specific law? 3. Do you still believe your country is sovereign?
- ethbr1 2y ago
  You've also just described trade agreements.
- gmueckl 2y ago
  1. Yes, outside the areas where EU has sole responsibility. 2. Yes, within the areas where the EU has exclusive responsibility and to some extent when it shares responsibility with member states. 3. Yes. Any country is free to leave the EU at any time. See Britain.
  - _7acn 2y ago
    In that case, I suggest taking a closer look at the definition of "sovereignty". When it comes to lawmaking, if you say that your country can basically do "almost everything" without the EU's permission, "BUT with certain exceptions" it simply means that it is not sovereign. This is not a matter of opinion but of facts. It's binary — either it is sovereign, or it is not.
    - izacus 2y ago
      You just made up a definition of sovereignty that no nation state on this planet fits.
    - gmueckl 2y ago
      EU countries aren't forced to stick to the union. If they dislike EU decisions, they are free to leave and do their own thing at any time. This is very unlike US states that aren't allowed to secede from their union.
      - _7acn 2y ago
        Whether one can opt out or not, whether someone likes it or not, and whether this state was reached voluntarily or by force, is irrelevant here - definition of sovereignty is pretty much clear
- zapperdulchen 2y ago
  Ad 3. If you believe in the European idea, it is not about my country being sovereign but the European people. There's tension in this for sure. Do the Catalans feel sovereign? The Scots? The Californians?
zizee 2y ago
Wasn't the federal government of the US formed with a very narrow mandate, and then ratcheted up control with the the innocuous sounding Interstate Commerce clause? Disclaimer: I am neither American, nor very educated about what I just wrote.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  To a first approximation of US history: yes. Also in the last 100 years via the Supreme Court's primacy.
mbivert 2y ago
Strictly speaking, you're correct, but practically speaking, I believe not so much. For example, France lost a key advantage ("competition rules") with nuclear energy essentially because it was considered unfair to other countries. But energetic independence is fundamental in part to economical independence: it's a key aspect of sovereignty. Another example would be the Euro ("monetary policy"): > Give me control over a nation’s currency, and I care not who makes its laws. Or, the fact that external laws (from the UE) can be applied to member countries without approval from the people is IMO another rather clear form of loss of sovereignty: a considerable amount (~20% for France IIRC) of legislation is imposed by external, un-elected bodies.
- zapperdulchen 2y ago
  Many perceive EU laws as imposed without democratic oversight, but this isn't quite accurate. The European Parliament, elected by EU citizens, is involved in most legislative processes. The EU Council, made up of ministers from elected governments, also plays a key role. It's not how national democracies work, but with no unified European public, this system might be the best compromise for now.
  - mbivert 2y ago
    Let's look in practice[0]: there's 720 seats in total for 2024. France has 81, spread on its local political spectrum [1]; biggest group has 18 seats. So while there's some democratic oversight, the public perception remains reasonable: the representative weight of an individual is severely diluted (divide & conquer, yada yada). As it plays on the democratic oversight perception as well, we could also look at the perception/quality of the locally elected bodies, and their general attitude towards the UE: a great example is [2] ("let's ask the people but do it anyway"). That's to say, I believe there are good reasons for people to perceive EU laws as imposed without democratic oversight. It's not 100% true, but overall, it's not an unfair qualification either. [0]: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/infographic/meps-seats/index_en.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/infographic/meps-seats/index_... [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_d%C3%A9put%C3%A9s_europ%C3%A9ens_de_France_de_la_9e_l%C3%A9gislature https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_d%C3%A9put%C3%A9s_eu... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitution_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitut...