3 ms·
There are many good treatments of this supposed loophole. I happen to like this one: https://blog.gruffdavies.com/2017/12/24/newtonian-physics-is https://blog.g
by dventimi 2y ago
There are many good treatments of this supposed loophole. I happen to like this one:
https://blog.gruffdavies.com/2017/12/24/newtonian-physics-is https://blog.gruffdavies.com/2017/12/24/newtonian-physics-is...
It points out many flaws in Norton's reasoning, some fatal to his argument, some not. Putting it as simply as I can, Norton seems to claim that "Newton's Laws" are non-deterministic. That's not quite right. Rather, they are non-complete. I.e. they are incomplete. They're incomplete insofar as Newton's First Law ("An object at rest remains at rest, and an object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force") establishes first-order and second-order derivatives (momentum and acceleration) as state variables but places no constraints on higher-order derivatives. However, higher-order derivatives are (as many as are needed) among a system's state variables. In many real systems (but far from all), higher-order derivatives are zero and human experience with them is rare, so they're easy to overlook. Norton's (unphysical) Dome is a specific example of a general class of systems where higher-order derivatives are not zero. Given that, the two branches of Norton's equation of motion (for the stable and unstable trajectories) cannot both describe the same system (or the same particle) with the same set of state variables. That's the sleight-of-hand.
Again, all credit to Gareth Davies for working this out. I am absolutely not trying to pass off his work for my own. Just reporting it and trying to summarize it.
- ttoinou 2y agoReading the original article I immediately thought about higher order derivative, which made me wonder what laws apply to them, that I’ve never studied that, that’s odd
- ThePhysicist 2y agoI think one can simply use the Euler-Lagrange method which is able to account for the constraint forces acting on the ball. Haven't worked that out for this particular problem but it should be relatively easy. Davies argument is a bit overcomplicated I think, the main challenge here is correctly accounting for the geometric constraints in the movement of the particle. I find the argument about the higher-order derivatives a bit weird as well, the system can be fully described using its potential and kinetic energy which are scalar (possibly time-dependent) fields and implicitly contain all forces, given some initial conditions (position and momentum) we can solve the equation of motion of the system with that.
- selimthegrim 2y agoI think Norton completely ignores virtual work and D’Alembert’s theorem