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Without resorting to any "big-D Devops" definition, I have almost always seen devops referring to "supporting / running the code you write", and have never enco

Without resorting to any "big-D Devops" definition, I have almost always seen devops referring to "supporting / running the code you write", and have never encountered the definition where dev and ops were 2 different roles. That was what things were like before devops, and coordination on product support and planning wasn't great, hence devops.

moandcompany 2y ago
A lot of organizations simply renamed the functional area of "systems administration" or "systems engineering" to "DevOps," and at many of these places, "DevOps" is the new name for the group that software developers will throw stuff over the fence to. The issue with the above names is that they can be applied to a domain or area of practices, or an organizational boundary. In a non-trivial number of organizations, "DevOps" is viewed as a support entity for one or more software development teams, versus software development teams practicing "devops." This applies to many of the *_Ops names in fashion during the past five years or so.
- znpy 2y ago
  After almost 10 years in the systems engineering / administration / devops / cloud etc space all I can say is: The biggest improvement that devops brought is that it made managers feel dumb, outdated and scared because they were not "doing devops" while everybody else was, so they kinda started listening to sysadmins and what they had to tell. Uh, devops engineers did not come out of nowhere. They did not come out of the ground like mushrooms. Most if not all the "devops engineers" i know are just former sysadmins. They were already willing to do whatever devops was supposed to be, it's just they they were largely ignored. Writing this I just realized that maybe the best way to obtain organizational change is to make management and upper management feel stupid and outdated. Interesting.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    Hence they have all hired “head of AI” in last 18 months.
    - moandcompany 2y ago
      "What is your AI strategy?" -> "We're hiring a Head of AI"
      - steveBK123 2y ago
        It’s the 2020s version of the old IBM line… No one ever got fired for hiring a head of AI.
stackskipton 2y ago
I'm Ops type person so I work at companies where there is a split between the two. Ops is a skill not all developers have or frankly, not even mindset to properly do so you will need a team/person to do it. Generally companies don't like the cost of embedding Ops person into every team and that can create redundant work so they form a DevOps/SRE team. Good resource for different types of teams is here: https://web.devopstopologies.com/ https://web.devopstopologies.com/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
0xbadcafebee 2y ago
The reason you never encountered the second definition is two-fold: 1) There is no formal academic education behind the concept (that I'm aware of). If you do a CS major, nobody's going to explain to you the accumulated 15 years of practice and knowledge around the concept. 2) Due to 1), people just repeat what other people tell them. It's like a long game of telephone. It turns out most software development today is just a game of telephone between devs (and now AI). So almost everyone is misinformed. The Wikipedia page for DevOps is the best generic starting point if you want to know more. If you want to know more after that, there are a number of books and blog posts. Jez Humble, John Willis, Gene Kim, Patrick Debois, etc are the people to read. It's a much larger body of knowledge than you might think. Almost none of it has to do with devs supporting/running what they write (that's a small subset of a larger category, and there's multiple categories of 'stuff')

moandcompany 2y ago

A lot of organizations simply renamed the functional area of "systems administration" or "systems engineering" to "DevOps," and at many of these places, "DevOps" is the new name for the group that software developers will throw stuff over the fence to. The issue with the above names is that they can be applied to a domain or area of practices, or an organizational boundary. In a non-trivial number of organizations, "DevOps" is viewed as a support entity for one or more software development teams, versus software development teams practicing "devops." This applies to many of the *_Ops names in fashion during the past five years or so.

znpy 2y ago
After almost 10 years in the systems engineering / administration / devops / cloud etc space all I can say is: The biggest improvement that devops brought is that it made managers feel dumb, outdated and scared because they were not "doing devops" while everybody else was, so they kinda started listening to sysadmins and what they had to tell. Uh, devops engineers did not come out of nowhere. They did not come out of the ground like mushrooms. Most if not all the "devops engineers" i know are just former sysadmins. They were already willing to do whatever devops was supposed to be, it's just they they were largely ignored. Writing this I just realized that maybe the best way to obtain organizational change is to make management and upper management feel stupid and outdated. Interesting.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  Hence they have all hired “head of AI” in last 18 months.
  - moandcompany 2y ago
    "What is your AI strategy?" -> "We're hiring a Head of AI"
    - steveBK123 2y ago
      It’s the 2020s version of the old IBM line… No one ever got fired for hiring a head of AI.

stackskipton 2y ago

I'm Ops type person so I work at companies where there is a split between the two. Ops is a skill not all developers have or frankly, not even mindset to properly do so you will need a team/person to do it. Generally companies don't like the cost of embedding Ops person into every team and that can create redundant work so they form a DevOps/SRE team. Good resource for different types of teams is here: https://web.devopstopologies.com/ https://web.devopstopologies.com/

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

0xbadcafebee 2y ago

The reason you never encountered the second definition is two-fold: 1) There is no formal academic education behind the concept (that I'm aware of). If you do a CS major, nobody's going to explain to you the accumulated 15 years of practice and knowledge around the concept. 2) Due to 1), people just repeat what other people tell them. It's like a long game of telephone. It turns out most software development today is just a game of telephone between devs (and now AI). So almost everyone is misinformed. The Wikipedia page for DevOps is the best generic starting point if you want to know more. If you want to know more after that, there are a number of books and blog posts. Jez Humble, John Willis, Gene Kim, Patrick Debois, etc are the people to read. It's a much larger body of knowledge than you might think. Almost none of it has to do with devs supporting/running what they write (that's a small subset of a larger category, and there's multiple categories of 'stuff')