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Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but this reminds me of scratch (+ visual basic ish), which I would consider "coding". Whether you type i-f or drag in "if"

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but this reminds me of scratch (+ visual basic ish), which I would consider "coding". Whether you type i-f or drag in "if" - it's still coding, right?

WillAdams 2y ago
Yes, but this eliminates syntax errors, and since it works well for folks who have difficulties w/ keyboards/are using styluses is something a bit different from the traditional view of programming as textual instructions. It would be interesting if it were more graphical/symbolic, and unlike Scratch (or its derivative Blockly) there aren't any visual cues as regards enforced syntax/structure. Interesting that they have a link for "Rich Comments (Adding Images)": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yd72YrXxF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yd72YrXxF0 Is it possible to install for Windows w/o using Steam?!? For those who are curious there is a list of GUI elements which are supported: https://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/pwct2/visualcomponents.html#gui-add-components https://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/pwct2/visualcomponents....
- MahmoudFayed 2y ago
  Thanks for your kind words To run the software without steam, install Ring language (Windows/Linux/macOS) then run it directly from the source code: https://github.com/PWCT/pwct2?tab=readme-ov-file#running-pwct-20-from-source-code-windowslinuxmacos https://github.com/PWCT/pwct2?tab=readme-ov-file#running-pwc... In terms of adding more graphical/symbolic elements, we will address this in PWCT3. Additionally, publishing the PWCT2 source code will enable developers to extend the software in various directions based on their vision.
- ANewFormation 2y ago
  The ironic thing is that as visual programming languages become sufficiently robust, the necessity of typing quickly returns. Blueprint in Unreal is the best example where you can try to dig through a tree of thousands of nodes (where hierarchies inherently start to become counter intuitive in at least some cases) or you can just start typing the node names. And then once you start also specifying the parameters you end up, more or less, typing out the calls anyhow - but with the downside that visual programming rapidly becomes inscrutible at scale with size + flow control/branching.
- smaudet 2y ago
  > who have difficulties w/ keyboards/are using styluses is something a bit different from the traditional view This part would be interesting, I perennially wish I could code on my tablet, but the IDEs there are just too awkward. The big issue is, I still want a touch-type interface (like a keyboard) so that I can rapidly access many different concepts, but the Android UI is just too constrained by me having to peck slowly one key at a time. I.e. the problem (there) is not the code, it is the input method. What I really need is the ability to access my idioms with multiple fingers, but without smudging my feedback loop (the mobile screen). Perhaps some method of inputting code as symbols with a stylus could work better? Although it might still be very awkward...
MahmoudFayed 2y ago
The design and programming concepts are related to programming, which is part of the software name Programming Without Coding Technology (PWCT). While coding involves writing textual code directly, Visual Programming Languages (VPLs) like Scratch and PWCT still require knowledge of programming concepts and problem-solving. However, they simplify the implementation process by reducing syntax errors and providing a graphical user interface (GUI) that can be in any human language. Visual components increase the level of abstraction, potentially reducing development time. PWCT2 is influenced by: 1- Lava visual language - Using the TreeView 2- Forms/3 - Using the Data-Entry forms 3- Scratch - Blocks, Colors, and Translation 4- Visual Basic - Form Designer 5- Envision - Rich comments & Interactive Visualization 6- PWCT1 6.1 Graphical Code Replacement (GCR) method instead of drag and drop 6.2 PWCT1 - The Time Machine (Run programs in the past & Play programs as a movie) PWCT2 introduces more features compared to PWCT1, such as importing Ring code, inserting steps, and more.
- smaudet 2y ago
  > potentially reducing development time See this is where this falls over. Syntax highlighting + autocomplete already handle this, and where this actually works against your language, you have the problem every GUI has, inflexibility. A "coding" language can evolve, structures change, be expressive or verbose. Much like a language. I doubt your UI can benefit from these abilities, whereas an IDE already provides visual cues etc. that reduce this development time, while preserving the expressiveness of the language. So, it probably does not reduce the development time, because the tools already solved this problem, and you just have a more clunky verbose, harder to develop language instead. And the types that aren't coding in the first place are still going to struggle with things like edge cases, etc., so this isn't really democratizing anything either.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but this reminds me of scratch (+ visual basic ish), which I would consider "coding". Whether you type i-f or drag in "if" - it's still coding, right?

WillAdams 2y ago

Yes, but this eliminates syntax errors, and since it works well for folks who have difficulties w/ keyboards/are using styluses is something a bit different from the traditional view of programming as textual instructions. It would be interesting if it were more graphical/symbolic, and unlike Scratch (or its derivative Blockly) there aren't any visual cues as regards enforced syntax/structure. Interesting that they have a link for "Rich Comments (Adding Images)": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yd72YrXxF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yd72YrXxF0 Is it possible to install for Windows w/o using Steam?!? For those who are curious there is a list of GUI elements which are supported: https://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/pwct2/visualcomponents.html#gui-add-components https://doublesvsoop.sourceforge.net/pwct2/visualcomponents....

MahmoudFayed 2y ago
Thanks for your kind words To run the software without steam, install Ring language (Windows/Linux/macOS) then run it directly from the source code: https://github.com/PWCT/pwct2?tab=readme-ov-file#running-pwct-20-from-source-code-windowslinuxmacos https://github.com/PWCT/pwct2?tab=readme-ov-file#running-pwc... In terms of adding more graphical/symbolic elements, we will address this in PWCT3. Additionally, publishing the PWCT2 source code will enable developers to extend the software in various directions based on their vision.
ANewFormation 2y ago
The ironic thing is that as visual programming languages become sufficiently robust, the necessity of typing quickly returns. Blueprint in Unreal is the best example where you can try to dig through a tree of thousands of nodes (where hierarchies inherently start to become counter intuitive in at least some cases) or you can just start typing the node names. And then once you start also specifying the parameters you end up, more or less, typing out the calls anyhow - but with the downside that visual programming rapidly becomes inscrutible at scale with size + flow control/branching.
smaudet 2y ago
> who have difficulties w/ keyboards/are using styluses is something a bit different from the traditional view This part would be interesting, I perennially wish I could code on my tablet, but the IDEs there are just too awkward. The big issue is, I still want a touch-type interface (like a keyboard) so that I can rapidly access many different concepts, but the Android UI is just too constrained by me having to peck slowly one key at a time. I.e. the problem (there) is not the code, it is the input method. What I really need is the ability to access my idioms with multiple fingers, but without smudging my feedback loop (the mobile screen). Perhaps some method of inputting code as symbols with a stylus could work better? Although it might still be very awkward...

MahmoudFayed 2y ago

The design and programming concepts are related to programming, which is part of the software name Programming Without Coding Technology (PWCT). While coding involves writing textual code directly, Visual Programming Languages (VPLs) like Scratch and PWCT still require knowledge of programming concepts and problem-solving. However, they simplify the implementation process by reducing syntax errors and providing a graphical user interface (GUI) that can be in any human language. Visual components increase the level of abstraction, potentially reducing development time. PWCT2 is influenced by: 1- Lava visual language - Using the TreeView 2- Forms/3 - Using the Data-Entry forms 3- Scratch - Blocks, Colors, and Translation 4- Visual Basic - Form Designer 5- Envision - Rich comments & Interactive Visualization 6- PWCT1 6.1 Graphical Code Replacement (GCR) method instead of drag and drop 6.2 PWCT1 - The Time Machine (Run programs in the past & Play programs as a movie) PWCT2 introduces more features compared to PWCT1, such as importing Ring code, inserting steps, and more.

smaudet 2y ago
> potentially reducing development time See this is where this falls over. Syntax highlighting + autocomplete already handle this, and where this actually works against your language, you have the problem every GUI has, inflexibility. A "coding" language can evolve, structures change, be expressive or verbose. Much like a language. I doubt your UI can benefit from these abilities, whereas an IDE already provides visual cues etc. that reduce this development time, while preserving the expressiveness of the language. So, it probably does not reduce the development time, because the tools already solved this problem, and you just have a more clunky verbose, harder to develop language instead. And the types that aren't coding in the first place are still going to struggle with things like edge cases, etc., so this isn't really democratizing anything either.