5 ms·

Savoy Style vs. Hollywood Style: A Fight to the Death (Hopefully?) (2011)

36 points by Tomte 2y ago

nordsieck 2y ago
A few examples as illustration: Sylvia Sykes dancing Lindy Hop[1]. An example of Savoy style Lindy Hop[2]. An example of Sylvia Sykes dancing West Coast Swing[3], a swing dance that was heavily influenced[4] by Hollywood style. For the keen eyed among you, she does a bit of Lindy and a bit of Balboa in the midst of the dance. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92xjd8f5Zes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92xjd8f5Zes 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmvKrPUo97E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmvKrPUo97E 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k 1. I've heard many purported histories of WCS, some from people who were there as the dance was forming. It's difficult to know exactly what is true.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  About 20 years ago I took a few courses in beginner's swing at the local community center that was co-taught by Sylvia Sykes. Had no clue she was well known in the swing dance community until much later.
- joshuamorton 2y ago
  It's extremely funny to watch these vs. modern WCS champions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuessx9D23c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuessx9D23c), which has almost none of the actual WCS basic you'd expect and see a lot of in (3). Compare to lindy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3NkAfi3x4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3NkAfi3x4), which even now is much more similar to its roots, pre-revival lindy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mT0wowIn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mT0wowIn4.
  - nordsieck 2y ago
    IMO, the primary reason for this is because WCS is danced to contemporary music. When the music changes, the dancing changes to suit it. I think your example is actually quite illustrative of this - the 2nd song had a lot more "swing content" than the first; since it's an older blues song the traditional West Coast Swing patterns fit it better.
jameshart 2y ago
Swing dance is second nature to us dance aficionados so it’s easy to forget that the average person probably only knows the general difference between Hollywood and Savoy style Lindy-Hop. And West Coast Swing, of course. https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
- NovemberWhiskey 2y ago
  >it’s easy to forget that the average person probably only knows the general difference between Hollywood and Savoy style Lindy-Hop You might be assuming too much, says the guy who read that article without any idea at all what it was actually about.
  - bradlys 2y ago
    It's a joke.
  - aaroninsf 2y ago
    C.f. the linked xkcd
- 542354234235 2y ago
  How could anyone consider themselves a well-rounded adult without a basic understanding of the Swing dance?
  - ifyouwantto 2y ago
    I’m solidly middle-aged and I’m reasonably certain I’ve never even known anybody who could do a name-able dance of any kind, aside from briefly and not-very-well mimicking meme dances. Earliest I recall was the Macarena. I don’t even know anyone who could convincingly do the Carlton. My best guess from the headline would have been this was about food. The only time I’ve ever been taught a dance, or even been present when anyone was learning a dance in anything resembling a serious fashion, was when they taught us the Minuet in 1st grade for some unfathomable reason. I am not at all confident I could describe or recognize Swing at all, versus any remotely-similar dance (like, if you showed me swing on one video and someone doing the stanky leg on another, I could guess that correctly, but make it much harder and my odds will be reduced to chance) I’m fairly sure the above is more-or-less the case for a large majority of adults I’ve ever known. The exceptions are a handful who did ballet as young kids. Maybe there are strong regional effects at play? Or something SES/class related. I also don’t know anybody who did the hardcore college-prep thing that lots of folks on HN take as a given for any college-bound kids, though nearly everyone in my circle did attend college. I even know a couple who went Ivy, but they didn’t do that. Maybe that sort of thing is more likely among (though I don’t mean exclusive to!) the set who’re pushed to collect activities as a kid and carry that on into college and young adulthood. [edit] I don’t mean to imply dance is bad, in fact it’d be sorta neat to be decent at dancing, it has just not been my experience that it’s at all a common skill—I know a lot more people who can play at least one instrument sort-of OK than people who can dance, like, at all. Actually I know more people who can play several instruments decently than who can dance at all. And I don’t run in musician-heavy circles.
bradlys 2y ago
It's unfortunate that these articles and discussions written by Americans about the dance are mostly going to be lost to the ether in the next ten years. As this dance and some others are mostly on their last breath in the US. Pre-covid things had slowed down a lot but covid killed almost every college dance club out there. It's uncommon to see anyone under 25 at these dances. The cost of dances/events skyrocketed as well. Young people who had no money were the life blood of any scene - the future organizers, instructors, DJs, and so on. It was rare to see people who started after 30 becoming organizers. Now, it's harder to even see people under 30 at a dance in the US and most organizers/DJs/teachers started over ten or even twenty years ago. It looks like there are more people who used to dance than future dancers. I'm not optimistic about the future of social dancing and that's why I've mostly given up on it after 15 years and doing 10 different styles.
- inkcapmushroom 2y ago
  There was one swing dance revival already, no reason there couldn't be another one. There's so much more information online about it now then people had when trying to reconstruct the dance style in the 90's as well, so even if it does die in our lifetime maybe there will be a 2120's swing dance revival as well. :)
- jefftk 2y ago
  I'm sure it varies by dance and region, but at least in the Northeast the contra community is doing well! Lots of new dances, lots of people of all ages, and the group I help organize is well above our pre-pandemic attendance.
- nox101 2y ago
  For me at least, I took around 2 years of swing dance lessons (1~2 a month). It was HARD, at least for me. It didn't take that long to get through the basics but I never got confident at it and always felt unwelcome at dance events where everyone only wants to dance with already skilled dancers. The only exception was beginner parts of dance events where the participants have no experience. I also found east coast swing to be very counter intuitive. 6 count on 4 count songs. Ugh! I picked it up but still.... Maybe it's unrealistic expectations from movies or something but basically, before taking the classes I thought social dancing would come kind of naturally with just a little instruction. Instead it turned out, again, at least for me, that it's a highly skilled activity and only others who've spent months training can participate. To put it another way, I thought a random skilled lead dancer could pick a random partner and guide them through some moves. I felt like I've seen that from salsa leads. But, charleston and 6 count east coast swing are not intuitive and require practice beforehand, AFAICT.
motohagiography 2y ago
appears I learned Savoy without knowing it owing to the emphasis on charlston, circularity, swingouts, and being more down low. I didn't think about why I stopped dancing. one of my favorite stories to tell about dancing in those days was going out to see a friend in LA and ending up at the Derby, a swing dance bar that was in a couple of movies and was central in the 90s swing revival. a girl we were with had just arrived in town from colorado to pursue her acting, she was an amazing dancer (to me) and one of those rare people who, with just a glance, could leave you completely charmed and happy to have met them. we never met again. some years later I saw her in a preview as she had landed a supporting character part in an indie movie that was showing at the toronto film fest or something. It was called Junebug. she became pretty famous, and knowing nothing about her at all- but just after dancing lindy hop in passing with her that one night, I always think she earned it. Anyway, dancing really connected people. I hope it becomes a thing again. it was a source of serendipity that's missing these days and it's funny to think about what became a part of the story of your life.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  What’s her name?
  - mbb70 2y ago
    Sounds like Amy Adams, 'pretty famous' would be an understatement
- claytonwramsey 2y ago
  > dancing really connected people. I hope it becomes a thing again. Social dancing’s demise has been greatly exaggerated! If you live in any moderately large city, there is almost certainly a swing dance scene, and you can find people doing social Latin (salsa, bachata) pretty much everywhere. My city’s swing dance club has a social every Sunday, with events on most Saturday evenings too.
  - krsdcbl 2y ago
    I'm quite surprised by the impression in the first place, since "dancing events" as a way to meet others and connect seems more ubiquitous than ever to me. It may not look much like typical social dances performed with a partner, but I'm definitely thinking of clubbings, raves and festivals as happenings were "dancing connects people" - and it's one of the primary ways almost anyone I know has been socializing, at least throughout their 20s and 30s.
kibwen 2y ago
Your regular reminder that every topic of human interest is an infinitely deep fractal of complexity.
fsckboy 2y ago
not knowing what this article was talking about about, I searched youtube, nope. So I ddg'ed (and the first thing to come up was TFA eyeroll.gif) but luckily there was also this: Hollywood Style and Savoy Style In the '90s two new swing styles emerged in California that for a while were strong rivals with each other, the Savoy Style which can be traced back to the ‘80’s revival of interest in lindy, and the 'Hollywood Style' which Erik Robison and Sylvia Skylar from Los Angeles put together in 1997. The latter combined west coast swing techniques with '40s dance stylings, most specifically Jean Veloz (who is featured in the 1940's short 'Groovie Movie' along with a number of major feature films), and "a look" derived from the dance sequences of various 1940’s and 50’s Hollywood films. Despite the name a sizeable proportion of the LA swing dance scene continued to adhere to the basic Dean Collins technique... they have some more to say if you want to look http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hollywood.htm http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hollywood.htm
TacticalCoder 2y ago
electro-swing is the style: https://youtu.be/v5daQd8UFDY https://youtu.be/v5daQd8UFDY 1m50 to 1m55 always does it for me!

36 points by Tomte 2y ago

A few examples as illustration: Sylvia Sykes dancing Lindy Hop[1]. An example of Savoy style Lindy Hop[2]. An example of Sylvia Sykes dancing West Coast Swing[3], a swing dance that was heavily influenced[4] by Hollywood style. For the keen eyed among you, she does a bit of Lindy and a bit of Balboa in the midst of the dance. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92xjd8f5Zes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92xjd8f5Zes 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmvKrPUo97E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmvKrPUo97E 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k 1. I've heard many purported histories of WCS, some from people who were there as the dance was forming. It's difficult to know exactly what is true.

aidenn0 2y ago
About 20 years ago I took a few courses in beginner's swing at the local community center that was co-taught by Sylvia Sykes. Had no clue she was well known in the swing dance community until much later.
joshuamorton 2y ago
It's extremely funny to watch these vs. modern WCS champions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuessx9D23c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nuessx9D23c), which has almost none of the actual WCS basic you'd expect and see a lot of in (3). Compare to lindy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3NkAfi3x4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN3NkAfi3x4), which even now is much more similar to its roots, pre-revival lindy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mT0wowIn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mT0wowIn4.
- nordsieck 2y ago
  IMO, the primary reason for this is because WCS is danced to contemporary music. When the music changes, the dancing changes to suit it. I think your example is actually quite illustrative of this - the 2nd song had a lot more "swing content" than the first; since it's an older blues song the traditional West Coast Swing patterns fit it better.

jameshart 2y ago

Swing dance is second nature to us dance aficionados so it’s easy to forget that the average person probably only knows the general difference between Hollywood and Savoy style Lindy-Hop. And West Coast Swing, of course. https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/

NovemberWhiskey 2y ago
>it’s easy to forget that the average person probably only knows the general difference between Hollywood and Savoy style Lindy-Hop You might be assuming too much, says the guy who read that article without any idea at all what it was actually about.
- bradlys 2y ago
  It's a joke.
- aaroninsf 2y ago
  C.f. the linked xkcd
542354234235 2y ago
How could anyone consider themselves a well-rounded adult without a basic understanding of the Swing dance?
- ifyouwantto 2y ago
  I’m solidly middle-aged and I’m reasonably certain I’ve never even known anybody who could do a name-able dance of any kind, aside from briefly and not-very-well mimicking meme dances. Earliest I recall was the Macarena. I don’t even know anyone who could convincingly do the Carlton. My best guess from the headline would have been this was about food. The only time I’ve ever been taught a dance, or even been present when anyone was learning a dance in anything resembling a serious fashion, was when they taught us the Minuet in 1st grade for some unfathomable reason. I am not at all confident I could describe or recognize Swing at all, versus any remotely-similar dance (like, if you showed me swing on one video and someone doing the stanky leg on another, I could guess that correctly, but make it much harder and my odds will be reduced to chance) I’m fairly sure the above is more-or-less the case for a large majority of adults I’ve ever known. The exceptions are a handful who did ballet as young kids. Maybe there are strong regional effects at play? Or something SES/class related. I also don’t know anybody who did the hardcore college-prep thing that lots of folks on HN take as a given for any college-bound kids, though nearly everyone in my circle did attend college. I even know a couple who went Ivy, but they didn’t do that. Maybe that sort of thing is more likely among (though I don’t mean exclusive to!) the set who’re pushed to collect activities as a kid and carry that on into college and young adulthood. [edit] I don’t mean to imply dance is bad, in fact it’d be sorta neat to be decent at dancing, it has just not been my experience that it’s at all a common skill—I know a lot more people who can play at least one instrument sort-of OK than people who can dance, like, at all. Actually I know more people who can play several instruments decently than who can dance at all. And I don’t run in musician-heavy circles.

bradlys 2y ago

It's unfortunate that these articles and discussions written by Americans about the dance are mostly going to be lost to the ether in the next ten years. As this dance and some others are mostly on their last breath in the US. Pre-covid things had slowed down a lot but covid killed almost every college dance club out there. It's uncommon to see anyone under 25 at these dances. The cost of dances/events skyrocketed as well. Young people who had no money were the life blood of any scene - the future organizers, instructors, DJs, and so on. It was rare to see people who started after 30 becoming organizers. Now, it's harder to even see people under 30 at a dance in the US and most organizers/DJs/teachers started over ten or even twenty years ago. It looks like there are more people who used to dance than future dancers. I'm not optimistic about the future of social dancing and that's why I've mostly given up on it after 15 years and doing 10 different styles.

inkcapmushroom 2y ago
There was one swing dance revival already, no reason there couldn't be another one. There's so much more information online about it now then people had when trying to reconstruct the dance style in the 90's as well, so even if it does die in our lifetime maybe there will be a 2120's swing dance revival as well. :)
jefftk 2y ago
I'm sure it varies by dance and region, but at least in the Northeast the contra community is doing well! Lots of new dances, lots of people of all ages, and the group I help organize is well above our pre-pandemic attendance.
nox101 2y ago
For me at least, I took around 2 years of swing dance lessons (1~2 a month). It was HARD, at least for me. It didn't take that long to get through the basics but I never got confident at it and always felt unwelcome at dance events where everyone only wants to dance with already skilled dancers. The only exception was beginner parts of dance events where the participants have no experience. I also found east coast swing to be very counter intuitive. 6 count on 4 count songs. Ugh! I picked it up but still.... Maybe it's unrealistic expectations from movies or something but basically, before taking the classes I thought social dancing would come kind of naturally with just a little instruction. Instead it turned out, again, at least for me, that it's a highly skilled activity and only others who've spent months training can participate. To put it another way, I thought a random skilled lead dancer could pick a random partner and guide them through some moves. I felt like I've seen that from salsa leads. But, charleston and 6 count east coast swing are not intuitive and require practice beforehand, AFAICT.

motohagiography 2y ago

appears I learned Savoy without knowing it owing to the emphasis on charlston, circularity, swingouts, and being more down low. I didn't think about why I stopped dancing. one of my favorite stories to tell about dancing in those days was going out to see a friend in LA and ending up at the Derby, a swing dance bar that was in a couple of movies and was central in the 90s swing revival. a girl we were with had just arrived in town from colorado to pursue her acting, she was an amazing dancer (to me) and one of those rare people who, with just a glance, could leave you completely charmed and happy to have met them. we never met again. some years later I saw her in a preview as she had landed a supporting character part in an indie movie that was showing at the toronto film fest or something. It was called Junebug. she became pretty famous, and knowing nothing about her at all- but just after dancing lindy hop in passing with her that one night, I always think she earned it. Anyway, dancing really connected people. I hope it becomes a thing again. it was a source of serendipity that's missing these days and it's funny to think about what became a part of the story of your life.

Mistletoe 2y ago
What’s her name?
- mbb70 2y ago
  Sounds like Amy Adams, 'pretty famous' would be an understatement
claytonwramsey 2y ago
> dancing really connected people. I hope it becomes a thing again. Social dancing’s demise has been greatly exaggerated! If you live in any moderately large city, there is almost certainly a swing dance scene, and you can find people doing social Latin (salsa, bachata) pretty much everywhere. My city’s swing dance club has a social every Sunday, with events on most Saturday evenings too.
- krsdcbl 2y ago
  I'm quite surprised by the impression in the first place, since "dancing events" as a way to meet others and connect seems more ubiquitous than ever to me. It may not look much like typical social dances performed with a partner, but I'm definitely thinking of clubbings, raves and festivals as happenings were "dancing connects people" - and it's one of the primary ways almost anyone I know has been socializing, at least throughout their 20s and 30s.

kibwen 2y ago

Your regular reminder that every topic of human interest is an infinitely deep fractal of complexity.

fsckboy 2y ago

not knowing what this article was talking about about, I searched youtube, nope. So I ddg'ed (and the first thing to come up was TFA eyeroll.gif) but luckily there was also this: Hollywood Style and Savoy Style In the '90s two new swing styles emerged in California that for a while were strong rivals with each other, the Savoy Style which can be traced back to the ‘80’s revival of interest in lindy, and the 'Hollywood Style' which Erik Robison and Sylvia Skylar from Los Angeles put together in 1997. The latter combined west coast swing techniques with '40s dance stylings, most specifically Jean Veloz (who is featured in the 1940's short 'Groovie Movie' along with a number of major feature films), and "a look" derived from the dance sequences of various 1940’s and 50’s Hollywood films. Despite the name a sizeable proportion of the LA swing dance scene continued to adhere to the basic Dean Collins technique... they have some more to say if you want to look http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hollywood.htm http://www.howtojive.com/intro-hollywood.htm

TacticalCoder 2y ago

electro-swing is the style: https://youtu.be/v5daQd8UFDY https://youtu.be/v5daQd8UFDY 1m50 to 1m55 always does it for me!