4 ms·

Apple auto-opts everyone into having their photos analyzed by AI for landmarks

90 points by pseudolus 2y ago

mouse_ 2y ago
You get what you put up with. Not trying to justify this but rather state it plainly for those still scratching their heads over such behavior. Is this actually a surprise, or even news, really, to anyone here? Ownership is a thing of the past. It doesn't have to be but when I suggest alternatives people say it's "impractical" for them but then act all surprised pikachu when it turns out they're totally beholden to what some billionaire thinks is best... Oh well.
- lapcat 2y ago
  > Is this actually a surprise, or even news, really, to anyone here? Yes, it's literally news, all over the tech news sites, including Hacker News. And yes, it's actually a surprise. Noted cryptograph Matthew Green said, "It’s very frustrating when you learn about a service two days before New Years and you find that it’s already been enabled on your phone." https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lefzhwitsk2y https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lef... Please show me where you, anonymous HN commenter, predicted that Apple would add Enhanced Visual Search in iOS 18.1 and silently opt everyone in. > when I suggest alternatives people say it's "impractical" for them So are you just choosing to ignore the practical concerns of people? Life is a series of tradeoffs. There is no perfect tech. If your alternatives are so indisputably superior, then why aren't they winning the market? Every time there's bad news about a big tech company, some commenters come out of the woodwork to provide condescending lectures for us unwashed masses, but these commenters invariably fail to acknowledge the many ways in which their alternatives are actually worse for most people, less useful, less practical, lacking in features, indeed more annoying than whatever bad news happens to be currently under discussion. The reason that the products of big tech companies are so popular is that those products are good and useful in many ways, despite the downsides. How about a discussion about what people have to give up exactly in order to switch to the alternatives, a discussion of the very real downsides to the alternatives? Oh well. > act all surprised pikachu when it turns out they're totally beholden to what some billionaire thinks is best... You're equivocating on the notion of surprise. On the one hand, nobody is surprised that tech CEOs have a lot of power over the users of their tech. That's an extremely vague, general notion. On the other hand, yes, people are surprised about some of the specific things that tech companies do, especially when those specific things are against the tech company's stated values. Are you claiming that nobody should talk about, complain about, or report in the news about the specific things that tech companies and billionaires do? Should we have complete silence about things happening with products used by billions of people?
  - threeseed 2y ago
    > And yes, it's actually a surprise Not sure why. Apple has presumably had AI scanning your photos for years now. It's how they power the Faces feature.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      That happens entirely on device, no internet component. "On-device performance is especially important as the end-to-end process runs entirely locally, on the users device, keeping the recognition processing private." https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/recognizing-people-photos https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/recognizing-peopl...
    - iAMkenough 2y ago
      Apple introduced the Faces feature in iPhoto in January 2009.
  - Erikun 2y ago
    I mean, that it’s a “surprise” and that he is upset he only found out about the features existence only two days before New Years seem a bit, well nonsense. Apple mentioned the feature in the 2024 iPhone event, including that it will be a combination of both onboard ml and services (it’s at about 55 minutes in the stream). Then there’s the blog post that describes the privacy features fairly detailed from October 24 (Combining Machine Learning and Homomorphic Encryption in the Apple Ecosystem). I think the feature went live in iOS 18.1 which was released three days later on october 28 according to google. There’s even a post on Reddit from five months ago noting the toggle appearing in the beta. There is a debate that could be had about opt in vs opt out if services but the idea that apple tried to sneak the feature in or hid how it works doesn’t hold up in my opinion.
    - lapcat 2y ago
      > Apple mentioned the feature in the 2024 iPhone event, including that it will be a combination of both onboard ml and services (it’s at about 55 minutes in the stream). I believe you're mistaken. At the 55 minute mark in the stream, Craig Federighi announced Visual Intelligence, exclusively for iPhone 16. That's not the same as Enhanced Visual Search, which appears to be available not only for all iPhone and iPad models but also for Mac. "Note: Visual intelligence with Camera Control requires Apple Intelligence and is available in iOS 18.2 or later on all iPhone 16 models." https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/use-visual-intelligence-with-camera-control-iph12eb1545e/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/use-visual-intelligen... Moreover, Apple Intelligence, and thus Visual Intelligence, is opt-in rather than opt-out. > Then there’s the blog post that describes the privacy features fairly detailed from October 24 (Combining Machine Learning and Homomorphic Encryption in the Apple Ecosystem). How many people read Apple's machine learning blog? I certainly don't. > I think the feature went live in iOS 18.1 That's what we're speculating, based on some vague evidence, but I'm not sure anybody knows for certain. > There’s even a post on Reddit from five months ago noting the toggle appearing in the beta. You're seriously citing a single obscure Reddit post as evidence that this wasn't a surprise to the general public?
- alex1138 2y ago
  "Is anyone surprised" isn't exactly whataboutism but this type of thing comes up so often, I need a word for it Whatever that word is, people need to do less of it, I don't think it ever really contributes anything
  - samlinnfer 2y ago
    It's just regular defeatism
    - Nathanba 2y ago
      I don't think it's real though, it's a covert call to action via reverse psychology: "everything is really really bad, it's almost hopeless and past time so... [do something about it]"
      - samlinnfer 2y ago
        Agreed, that's the second level of meta, the over-the-top defeatism as a call to action.
  - mouse_ 2y ago
    I'm not trying to imply we are defeated, I'm simply trying to convey that our focus should be on the fact that all our castles are in a hostile kingdom. I'm quite tired of all this "Leopards keep eating my face and I Don't Know Why!". This sort of message board has been rife with this sort of sentiment since the 90's (and probably earlier; I'm young-ish) and these organizations have only gotten stronger since then. You're playing their game to their benefit. I hope that clears things up some, and I'm glad to know this sort of sentiment (the "This is what happens when you build your castle in a hostile kingdom") comes up often, as it implies more people are getting over it. I would be embarrassed if this specifically happened to me, as I am embarrassed when similar things happen to me in other hostile ecosystems. It drives me to improve and pursue autonomy, digital or otherwise. How else can we move forward, and I mean, for good? There are so many things I do on computers that are not, in fact, constant uphill battles. It's possible!
tempodox 2y ago
This feels like forced CSAM scanning through a back door even without explicit iCloud upload. I'm just glad I haven't installed either of those OSs. Too many bad experiences from the past have made me extremely wary of installing OS updates. Fool me once, ...
miav 2y ago
So, why are we mad about this? The techniques used maintain perfect privacy throughought the process. It's a neat feature with no downsides for the user.
- drawkward 2y ago
  Because apple could, just as easily, have auto opted-out everyone from this decision. I am not, by default, training data for AI or machine learning.
  - foldr 2y ago
    Could Apple get any training data out of this, given the homomorphic encryption?
    - benwad 2y ago
      The purpose of the homomorphic encryption is that they can compare similar landmarks without seeing the unencrypted image data on the server side.
      - foldr 2y ago
        Right, so I assume that they can’t build up a database of images to use for training future models. But I was hoping someone who understands homomorphic encryption and machine learning better than me could confirm this.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      If not, then why the default opt-in?
      - dialup_sounds 2y ago
        Because it's a) a useful function for the app that b) can't practically be done entirely on-device, and c) they believe they're not sending anything private off-device.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
newscracker 2y ago
The main issues here are the default opt-in and not announcing this feature way back in September. If someone wants this, they can always enable it if it’s opted out by default. I’d expect Apple to fix this soon. The link below is from the original author of this revelation, and is better suited for discussion, IMO. The author, Jeff Johnson, is a long time developer of applications on macOS and iOS/iPadOS. Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 Discussed five days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42533685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42533685 December 28 2024 https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/3.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/3.html The follow up is also interesting and relevant: The internet is full of experts December 31 2024 https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/4.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/4.html
- kohbo 2y ago
  "fix this" You mean backtrack, right? I don't think we should give them credit
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
  "According to their criticism, an iPhone user is not entitled to question an iPhone feature. Whatever Apple says must be trusted implicitly."
beaugunderson 2y ago
The really annoying thing is that if you opt out on your phone it does not opt out on your computer and vice versa. You have to opt out in both places individually.
snakeyjake 2y ago
It's fantastic. Searching through my photo library in plain text is one of the few useful features of machine learning I've ever encountered. "But I don't want them to do it." With all due respect, quit your bitching and turn it off. "But I shouldn't have to." The needs of the normal many outweigh the needs of the edge case weirdo few. "But this is the first step in a long downwa.." No, it isn't.
mrayycombi 2y ago
I'm sure, like the siri spying lawsuit where Apple gives you $20 for your privacy(if you ask for the $20), there's another lawsuit & $20 pahment waiting for this "privacy respecting company" to give you.
Incipient 2y ago
Everyone is going to keep using Apple devices. No one is really going to care, Apple will suffer no reputation damage, hence Apple (and other companies) will keep doing it. Everyone/no one used in the main - 99%+ of people.

90 points by pseudolus 2y ago

You get what you put up with. Not trying to justify this but rather state it plainly for those still scratching their heads over such behavior. Is this actually a surprise, or even news, really, to anyone here? Ownership is a thing of the past. It doesn't have to be but when I suggest alternatives people say it's "impractical" for them but then act all surprised pikachu when it turns out they're totally beholden to what some billionaire thinks is best... Oh well.

lapcat 2y ago
> Is this actually a surprise, or even news, really, to anyone here? Yes, it's literally news, all over the tech news sites, including Hacker News. And yes, it's actually a surprise. Noted cryptograph Matthew Green said, "It’s very frustrating when you learn about a service two days before New Years and you find that it’s already been enabled on your phone." https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lefzhwitsk2y https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lef... Please show me where you, anonymous HN commenter, predicted that Apple would add Enhanced Visual Search in iOS 18.1 and silently opt everyone in. > when I suggest alternatives people say it's "impractical" for them So are you just choosing to ignore the practical concerns of people? Life is a series of tradeoffs. There is no perfect tech. If your alternatives are so indisputably superior, then why aren't they winning the market? Every time there's bad news about a big tech company, some commenters come out of the woodwork to provide condescending lectures for us unwashed masses, but these commenters invariably fail to acknowledge the many ways in which their alternatives are actually worse for most people, less useful, less practical, lacking in features, indeed more annoying than whatever bad news happens to be currently under discussion. The reason that the products of big tech companies are so popular is that those products are good and useful in many ways, despite the downsides. How about a discussion about what people have to give up exactly in order to switch to the alternatives, a discussion of the very real downsides to the alternatives? Oh well. > act all surprised pikachu when it turns out they're totally beholden to what some billionaire thinks is best... You're equivocating on the notion of surprise. On the one hand, nobody is surprised that tech CEOs have a lot of power over the users of their tech. That's an extremely vague, general notion. On the other hand, yes, people are surprised about some of the specific things that tech companies do, especially when those specific things are against the tech company's stated values. Are you claiming that nobody should talk about, complain about, or report in the news about the specific things that tech companies and billionaires do? Should we have complete silence about things happening with products used by billions of people?
- threeseed 2y ago
  > And yes, it's actually a surprise Not sure why. Apple has presumably had AI scanning your photos for years now. It's how they power the Faces feature.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    That happens entirely on device, no internet component. "On-device performance is especially important as the end-to-end process runs entirely locally, on the users device, keeping the recognition processing private." https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/recognizing-people-photos https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/recognizing-peopl...
  - iAMkenough 2y ago
    Apple introduced the Faces feature in iPhoto in January 2009.
- Erikun 2y ago
  I mean, that it’s a “surprise” and that he is upset he only found out about the features existence only two days before New Years seem a bit, well nonsense. Apple mentioned the feature in the 2024 iPhone event, including that it will be a combination of both onboard ml and services (it’s at about 55 minutes in the stream). Then there’s the blog post that describes the privacy features fairly detailed from October 24 (Combining Machine Learning and Homomorphic Encryption in the Apple Ecosystem). I think the feature went live in iOS 18.1 which was released three days later on october 28 according to google. There’s even a post on Reddit from five months ago noting the toggle appearing in the beta. There is a debate that could be had about opt in vs opt out if services but the idea that apple tried to sneak the feature in or hid how it works doesn’t hold up in my opinion.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    > Apple mentioned the feature in the 2024 iPhone event, including that it will be a combination of both onboard ml and services (it’s at about 55 minutes in the stream). I believe you're mistaken. At the 55 minute mark in the stream, Craig Federighi announced Visual Intelligence, exclusively for iPhone 16. That's not the same as Enhanced Visual Search, which appears to be available not only for all iPhone and iPad models but also for Mac. "Note: Visual intelligence with Camera Control requires Apple Intelligence and is available in iOS 18.2 or later on all iPhone 16 models." https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/use-visual-intelligence-with-camera-control-iph12eb1545e/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/use-visual-intelligen... Moreover, Apple Intelligence, and thus Visual Intelligence, is opt-in rather than opt-out. > Then there’s the blog post that describes the privacy features fairly detailed from October 24 (Combining Machine Learning and Homomorphic Encryption in the Apple Ecosystem). How many people read Apple's machine learning blog? I certainly don't. > I think the feature went live in iOS 18.1 That's what we're speculating, based on some vague evidence, but I'm not sure anybody knows for certain. > There’s even a post on Reddit from five months ago noting the toggle appearing in the beta. You're seriously citing a single obscure Reddit post as evidence that this wasn't a surprise to the general public?
alex1138 2y ago
"Is anyone surprised" isn't exactly whataboutism but this type of thing comes up so often, I need a word for it Whatever that word is, people need to do less of it, I don't think it ever really contributes anything
- samlinnfer 2y ago
  It's just regular defeatism
  - Nathanba 2y ago
    I don't think it's real though, it's a covert call to action via reverse psychology: "everything is really really bad, it's almost hopeless and past time so... [do something about it]"
    - samlinnfer 2y ago
      Agreed, that's the second level of meta, the over-the-top defeatism as a call to action.
- mouse_ 2y ago
  I'm not trying to imply we are defeated, I'm simply trying to convey that our focus should be on the fact that all our castles are in a hostile kingdom. I'm quite tired of all this "Leopards keep eating my face and I Don't Know Why!". This sort of message board has been rife with this sort of sentiment since the 90's (and probably earlier; I'm young-ish) and these organizations have only gotten stronger since then. You're playing their game to their benefit. I hope that clears things up some, and I'm glad to know this sort of sentiment (the "This is what happens when you build your castle in a hostile kingdom") comes up often, as it implies more people are getting over it. I would be embarrassed if this specifically happened to me, as I am embarrassed when similar things happen to me in other hostile ecosystems. It drives me to improve and pursue autonomy, digital or otherwise. How else can we move forward, and I mean, for good? There are so many things I do on computers that are not, in fact, constant uphill battles. It's possible!

tempodox 2y ago

This feels like forced CSAM scanning through a back door even without explicit iCloud upload. I'm just glad I haven't installed either of those OSs. Too many bad experiences from the past have made me extremely wary of installing OS updates. Fool me once, ...

miav 2y ago

So, why are we mad about this? The techniques used maintain perfect privacy throughought the process. It's a neat feature with no downsides for the user.

drawkward 2y ago
Because apple could, just as easily, have auto opted-out everyone from this decision. I am not, by default, training data for AI or machine learning.
- foldr 2y ago
  Could Apple get any training data out of this, given the homomorphic encryption?
  - benwad 2y ago
    The purpose of the homomorphic encryption is that they can compare similar landmarks without seeing the unencrypted image data on the server side.
    - foldr 2y ago
      Right, so I assume that they can’t build up a database of images to use for training future models. But I was hoping someone who understands homomorphic encryption and machine learning better than me could confirm this.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    If not, then why the default opt-in?
    - dialup_sounds 2y ago
      Because it's a) a useful function for the app that b) can't practically be done entirely on-device, and c) they believe they're not sending anything private off-device.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

newscracker 2y ago

The main issues here are the default opt-in and not announcing this feature way back in September. If someone wants this, they can always enable it if it’s opted out by default. I’d expect Apple to fix this soon. The link below is from the original author of this revelation, and is better suited for discussion, IMO. The author, Jeff Johnson, is a long time developer of applications on macOS and iOS/iPadOS. Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15 Discussed five days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42533685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42533685 December 28 2024 https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/3.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/3.html The follow up is also interesting and relevant: The internet is full of experts December 31 2024 https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/4.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/12/4.html

kohbo 2y ago
"fix this" You mean backtrack, right? I don't think we should give them credit
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
"According to their criticism, an iPhone user is not entitled to question an iPhone feature. Whatever Apple says must be trusted implicitly."

beaugunderson 2y ago

The really annoying thing is that if you opt out on your phone it does not opt out on your computer and vice versa. You have to opt out in both places individually.

snakeyjake 2y ago

It's fantastic. Searching through my photo library in plain text is one of the few useful features of machine learning I've ever encountered. "But I don't want them to do it." With all due respect, quit your bitching and turn it off. "But I shouldn't have to." The needs of the normal many outweigh the needs of the edge case weirdo few. "But this is the first step in a long downwa.." No, it isn't.

mrayycombi 2y ago

I'm sure, like the siri spying lawsuit where Apple gives you $20 for your privacy(if you ask for the $20), there's another lawsuit & $20 pahment waiting for this "privacy respecting company" to give you.

Incipient 2y ago

Everyone is going to keep using Apple devices. No one is really going to care, Apple will suffer no reputation damage, hence Apple (and other companies) will keep doing it. Everyone/no one used in the main - 99%+ of people.