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Overbooking and oversubscription are inherently very different. Flying is a one-time service with a specific and fixed point at which the service is provided.

Overbooking and oversubscription are inherently very different. Flying is a one-time service with a specific and fixed point at which the service is provided. Its peak usage is the expected usage. Internet access is a continuous service promise where it's nonsensical to expect the provider to predict exactly when every customer would want to use it. The peak usage is not the expected usage. These are not comparable situations.

adriancr 2y ago
They are comparable for expectations. You pay for a certain level of service, you expect it delivered.
- dataflow 2y ago
  First: No, they're not. That is an unreasonable expectation divorced from the reality. What exactly do you think would happen if everyone in town switched off and on their AC-powered devices at the same time? What do you think would happen if everyone in town moves to the same street and starts using their cell phone to stream 4K videos at the same time? Do you seriously think it's reasonable to expect every system to deliver at its peak with arbitrary demand and load on it? Second: If you're going to play the "I paid for this" game: this stuff is generally in the contract anyway. It is the level of service you paid for. The overbooking possibility? You paid for it, it was in your contract. Throttled service? That was in your contract too. You're getting what you paid for.
  - adriancr 2y ago
    > What exactly do you think would happen if everyone in town switched off and on their AC-powered devices at the same time? Large systems have their own rules. If everybody watches the superbowl at the same time I'd expect the power grid not to fail. If everybody gets home at around the same time from work and start powering on devices I'd expect power grid not to fail. If it suddently gets cold and people turn on heating around same time, I'd expect it not to fail. Those seem valid expectations and are met. Therefor when I say if everyone starts streaming netflix it should work, then this is also valid expectation and should be fine. > It is the level of service you paid for. The overbooking possibility? You paid for it, it was in your contract. I get what I pay for when I want. I have 1gbps, I can run full speed as much as I want and sometimes it's nice to do that. I am also in europe. I don't get throttled service and what you say is not in my contract. What do you say to that?
    - abduhl 2y ago
      From the first google result (although this was 5 years ago): “Europe gave internet service providers the right to throttle online traffic to prevent congestion as network demand spikes amid coronavirus stay-at-home and quarantine orders. Netflix and YouTube have already agreed to switch to standard-definition streaming in Europe to reduce bandwidth demand.” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/coronavirus-europe-gives-isps-right-throttle-online-traffic-1285606/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/coronavir...
      - adriancr 2y ago
        Right does not mean it's used. I would change provider if I were throttled. > Netflix and YouTube have already agreed to switch to standard-definition streaming in Europe to reduce bandwidth demand.” You can change quality back to whatever. You can also use other services or use the connection for other things.
        BenjiWiebe 2y ago
        You're 99% on an oversubscribed connection, but the oversubscription ratio was chosen correctly so you'll likely never notice any problems. Dedicated Internet access is a thing, but it's expensive; and I'd argue that even that is oversubscribed if you go far enough up the chain.
        adriancr 2y ago
        Sure, ISP can oversubscribe as much as they want. As long as they make a fair guess and I get my bandwidth whenever I want, all is good. That seems to be the case right now. Dedicated internet access is a different thing, I agree, it also provides different guarantees, support, etc.
        sgjohnson 2y ago
        > Dedicated Internet access is a thing, but it's expensive; and I'd argue that even that is oversubscribed if you go far enough up the chain. The only way to get internet access that’s not oversubscribed is by renting (or pulling your own) layer 0. By that I mean either renting a wavelength between certain PoPs or just pulling your own fiber.

adriancr 2y ago

They are comparable for expectations. You pay for a certain level of service, you expect it delivered.

dataflow 2y ago
First: No, they're not. That is an unreasonable expectation divorced from the reality. What exactly do you think would happen if everyone in town switched off and on their AC-powered devices at the same time? What do you think would happen if everyone in town moves to the same street and starts using their cell phone to stream 4K videos at the same time? Do you seriously think it's reasonable to expect every system to deliver at its peak with arbitrary demand and load on it? Second: If you're going to play the "I paid for this" game: this stuff is generally in the contract anyway. It is the level of service you paid for. The overbooking possibility? You paid for it, it was in your contract. Throttled service? That was in your contract too. You're getting what you paid for.
- adriancr 2y ago
  > What exactly do you think would happen if everyone in town switched off and on their AC-powered devices at the same time? Large systems have their own rules. If everybody watches the superbowl at the same time I'd expect the power grid not to fail. If everybody gets home at around the same time from work and start powering on devices I'd expect power grid not to fail. If it suddently gets cold and people turn on heating around same time, I'd expect it not to fail. Those seem valid expectations and are met. Therefor when I say if everyone starts streaming netflix it should work, then this is also valid expectation and should be fine. > It is the level of service you paid for. The overbooking possibility? You paid for it, it was in your contract. I get what I pay for when I want. I have 1gbps, I can run full speed as much as I want and sometimes it's nice to do that. I am also in europe. I don't get throttled service and what you say is not in my contract. What do you say to that?
  - abduhl 2y ago
    From the first google result (although this was 5 years ago): “Europe gave internet service providers the right to throttle online traffic to prevent congestion as network demand spikes amid coronavirus stay-at-home and quarantine orders. Netflix and YouTube have already agreed to switch to standard-definition streaming in Europe to reduce bandwidth demand.” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/coronavirus-europe-gives-isps-right-throttle-online-traffic-1285606/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/coronavir...
    - adriancr 2y ago
      Right does not mean it's used. I would change provider if I were throttled. > Netflix and YouTube have already agreed to switch to standard-definition streaming in Europe to reduce bandwidth demand.” You can change quality back to whatever. You can also use other services or use the connection for other things.
      - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
        You're 99% on an oversubscribed connection, but the oversubscription ratio was chosen correctly so you'll likely never notice any problems. Dedicated Internet access is a thing, but it's expensive; and I'd argue that even that is oversubscribed if you go far enough up the chain.
        adriancr 2y ago
        Sure, ISP can oversubscribe as much as they want. As long as they make a fair guess and I get my bandwidth whenever I want, all is good. That seems to be the case right now. Dedicated internet access is a different thing, I agree, it also provides different guarantees, support, etc.
        sgjohnson 2y ago
        > Dedicated Internet access is a thing, but it's expensive; and I'd argue that even that is oversubscribed if you go far enough up the chain. The only way to get internet access that’s not oversubscribed is by renting (or pulling your own) layer 0. By that I mean either renting a wavelength between certain PoPs or just pulling your own fiber.