6 ms·

With 10 months of support remaining, Windows 10 still dominates

39 points by LorenDB 2y ago

orionblastar 2y ago
Of course, most Windows 10 PCs don't have the newer hardware to upgrade to Windows 11. They are stuck at 10 and when support runs out it will run out.
- Our_Benefactors 2y ago
  They walked back the official TPM requirement
- precommunicator 2y ago
  Doesn't seem to be the case anymore: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369757
  - seplox 2y ago
    That article was incorrect when written and has since been retracted. The link now takes you to a rewrite that reaffirms Microsoft's commitment to TPM v2 and that reports Microsoft's current position that they reserve the right to break your computer if you install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware.
DanAtC 2y ago
IoT LTSC is supported until 2032
- booi 2y ago
  I don’t think you can run the IoT version for general purpose use. Also if you’re using windows on an IoT device…
  - bcraven 2y ago
    https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise/overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise... Enterprise IoT is "binary equivalent" to Enterprise.
    - eutropia 2y ago
      > Note: Microsoft does not publish feature updates through Windows Update for devices running Windows IoT Enterprise LTSC. This sounds like a strict upgrade to consumer-grade windows... How does an enterprising user get a legal hold on one of those licenses?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - bcraven 2y ago
        It is possible to change your Windows edition using open-source tools: https://massgrave.dev/change_windows_edition https://massgrave.dev/change_windows_edition
        xeonmc 2y ago
        Should link this article instead https://massgrave.dev/windows10_eol https://massgrave.dev/windows10_eol
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
        The other child comments are responding with how to obtain this in a way that is of questionable legality, which I think is not what you are asking. The officially blessed Microsoft way is essentially not available to non-enterprise customers, and it's only available to some subset of enterprise customers from my understanding. And that the cost to acquire the license is quite expensive.
  - thisrod 2y ago
    Also if you’re using windows on an IoT device… Microsoft is using IoT in a loose sense. The "thing" could be an industrial PC at the train station that plays a recorded message saying the 8:15 will run late today.
SirMaster 2y ago
You mean 10 months of free support remaining. Pretty sure there is going to be an option to pay for additional support duration even for home users. And there is an edition of Windows 10 that is supported until 2032, so it's not like they aren't still doing security patches anyway. I would be willing to bet MS may even decide to extend the free support duration. But if they hold out on making that decision until the last minute, they can still persuade more users to switch to W11. So if they are going to extend the free support, I wouldn't expect to hear about that until much closer to October.
Dig1t 2y ago
The fact that all my existing computers are incompatible with the new version of Windows and that I need to buy all new machines is the dumbest decision ever. I resent Microsoft’s decision and do not plan on ever upgrading to 11 because of it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
gjvc 2y ago
64-bit Windows XP with the 2000 look and feel was the peak
- layer8 2y ago
  Even Windows 7 with that classic look enabled was still fine.
  - gjvc 2y ago
    wow. never knew. will try. thank you! :-)
gorjusborg 2y ago
Anyone else here holding out? I am a hold out on upgrading, but mostly because of what I gather Microsoft's vision of the future of computing. They took a page out of Apple's notebook, the one where the user doesn't know what they want, the company does. Apparently we want: - A requirement of a non-local Microsoft account to install or use it, with no opt-out - An AI subsystem that tracks everything we do on the machine - Requirement to upgrade hardware to install the OS - Ads in our face - A worse start menu - A worse taskbar - Dark patterns to get us to accept it all I just want to buy an operating system for my hardware, not have Microsoft claim said hardware as their property. I'm the landlord, not the OS developer. I'll be using Windows 10 until I can't any longer for things that require Windows. For everything else, Linux.
- skirmish 2y ago
  I worked around several of those pain points: - A requirement of a non-local Microsoft account to install or use it, with no opt-out With some effort, you can use local account: https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-microsoft-account https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-mi... - Ads in our face - A worse start menu - A worse taskbar Fix Explorer with Explorer Patcher: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher . It was unusable otherwise for me.
  - NBJack 2y ago
    > With some effort, you can use local account For now. Microsoft has been trying to close that for a while, and I suspect the only thing keeping some of it alive is the stark security requirements some of their corporate/business customers mandate.
  - gausswho 2y ago
    The existence of these workarounds allow Microsoft to achieve their goals. It doesn't behoove them to tighten the screws completely, because they still get to capture the vast majority who do what they're told to. And after enough years of acceptance of surveillance creep, the Overton window will have shifted enough that subverting these controls will be perceived by normies as suspicious behavior.
y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
I've got one machine and a VM on Windows 11, but I use Windows 10 on my primary gaming laptop and work laptop. People always ask me why I'm still on Windows 10. Obviously there's nothing I can do about the enterprise version installed on my work laptop, so let's just focus on the gaming one. It's got an i7-11800H, RTX 3080, 64GB of RAM, and a Samsung 990 PRO nvme drive. When I bought it, it came installed with Windows 11. Even with the proclaimed performance enhancements of Windows 11, this laptop seemed quite slow for the specs it was sporting. I decided to revert back to Windows 10 and all of a sudden we're flying. I've tried on one other occasion to upgrade with Windows 11, but the performance just does not match up. I don't understand the problem, but it's the primary reason for keeping me on the platform. The other reasons for staying on Windows 10 are: no ads, less telemetry (although I disable this with Windows de-bloater and O&O shut-up anyway), and more intuitive interface. I hate having to customize the shit out of Windows 11 to get the experience that was out of the box on Windows 10; things like start menu placement, context menu behavior, taskbar settings, notifications, etc. I wish I could switch over to Linux, I truly do, but it's still not ready. I recently tried out Linux Mint and immediately ran into an issue with my mouse wheel + back/forward buttons not working. Off to search for the solution and the level of effort to get it working right seemed in line with operations tasks I have to deal with at my FAANG job. I don't have the time, energy, nor patience for this bullshit just to get my mouse working properly. Imagine the hoops I'll have to jump through for all my games to work right. Also when I raise grievances like this with the Linux crowd, I either get the "try this distro" (which has its own problems) or some snarky answer. So yeah, we're not there yet.
chis 2y ago
What is going to happen with this? It’s pretty unimaginable that Windows would drop support for 30% of PCs or whatever, exposing them all to viruses. It seems like everyone will be forced to switch to Linux or something. Obviously I’m not going to upgrade my perfectly good CPU to make windows happy.
- joshmarinacci 2y ago
  How would everyone be forced to switch to another OS? These machines won’t suddenly refuse to boot.
- layer8 2y ago
  There will be paid security updates from Microsoft [0], 0patch [1] (if you trust them), the LTSC version (which however takes you back to 21H2), and lastly you can still take your chances with just Windows Defender signature updates. I know a couple of people who still run Windows 7, including a security researcher (and not for research purposes), which still receives Microsoft Defender signature updates. [0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended-security-updates https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended... [1] https://blog.0patch.com/2024/06/long-live-windows-10-with-0patch.html https://blog.0patch.com/2024/06/long-live-windows-10-with-0p...
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  I don't think security updates are actually that important
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  Cloud PC might leap to the fore here, sold as a way to get "the latest Windows goodness" without needing anything more than a minimal client and decent Internet. It would solve all the patching issues, give Microsoft excellent data on how people use "their" computers, and generate a little cash on the side. Then windows on the desktop could shrivel over time to just be a stub and a client.
Dembrush 2y ago
I know Rufus allows you to bypass certain requirements like Secure Boot and TPM 2.0, does anyone know if it can cause issues?
- layer8 2y ago
  So far it doesn’t. But Windows 11 24H2 now requires support for the POPCNT instruction and otherwise won’t boot, which excludes some older CPUs. Conceivably future Windows 11 updates will add further hard requirements like that.
terribleperson 2y ago
I have, unfortunately, upgraded to Windows 11. As far as I can tell, it's Windows 10 but worse in a number of ways. It sucks. My first several hours with Windows 11, I was constantly sending a friend things that had changed for the worse. I don't think there are any user-facing improvements that Windows 11 brings, which really isn't a surprise.
- sp_c 2y ago
  I do like the tabbed explorer... that is nice.
  - terribleperson 2y ago
    That's fair, the tabs are nice. If only they hadn't killed the file menu, the address bar, and sane navigation in the process.
NBJack 2y ago
It's a sad state of bad features, unwanted behavior, reduced functionality, and regular regressions in behavior/performance. Honestly, it's an embarrassing situation for them that shows how much they've lost whatever way they had left. https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-windows-11-24h2-bug-list-12-reasons-to-avoid-this-update-for-now/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-windows-11-24h2-bug-list-1... And let's not forget the biggest layoffs in 2022 were on the QA teams. It shows.
t_mann 2y ago
Didn't MS once say something to the effect that Windows 10 would be the 'last' major Windows version and that they'd switch to a more continuous update model? In reality, it was probably one of the versions with the shortest time until the update was announced. Windows 11 reminds me of the old rule that every other Windows version is best skipped.
- daveoc64 2y ago
  >Didn't MS once say something to the effect that Windows 10 would be the 'last' major Windows version and that they'd switch to a more continuous update model? No, a Microsoft employee said something to that effect in a speech in 2015, but it wasn't an official statement.
harimau777 2y ago
I think that the problem might be that people don't trust that Windows 11 isn't enshittified somehow relative to 10 or that the upgrade won't screw them over somehow. Seems like corporate bad behavior coming back to bite us.
spl757 2y ago
I've been running Gnu/Linux for my desktop for over a decade. If I can't make a windows app work in my preferred OS, I just don't use it. There is a decent free alternative almost everything and I can make do with that.
sensanaty 2y ago
I just built a new PC literally yesterday and decided to try Win11. It has been shocking how terrible of an experience it is. The very first thing I saw was TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and some other bloatware apps installed in the start menu (this is a Pro install, not Home edition) The start menu itself is basically just a copy of a mobile phone's home screen. I can no longer place my taskbar to the top as I've done for the last 20 years. A disgusting amount of telemetry is enabled by default, including what is basically a keylogger, and I don't trust them for a second that they actually stop sending everything through even if you disable it in the group policy editor. The right-click context menu requires 2 clicks to get the usual list of actions. In order to change to the dark theme, you have to login with a microsoft account. Many other settings are also disabled until you login. Edge gives you a truly pathetic nag if you type in Firefox on Bing. It constantly nags at you afterwards. I actually laughed out loud at how sad and pathetic it was, literally begging you to keep using Edge. Explorer hangs constantly and is infuriatingly slow, even on my extremely fast and for now empty SSD. Search is useless despite the indexing feature. I could go on. There're some small nice improvements like better dark mode support (though still not perfect and there's still lots of legacy windows). HDR support is better. The new settings app is better if only cause things aren't split between the control panel and it anymore. However there being ads and suggested items popping up in my start menu disgusts me. The fact that you have to debloat the OS yourself, find 3rd party tools to fix all the garbage decisions M$ made, all for what basically amounts to microscopic sidegrades compared to Win10 just makes it a nogo. I don't care about security "updates", I'll be using Win10 for a long, long time.
andriesm 2y ago
Only use WIN on dedicated games-only computer. Please save us, Steam OS!! Once Steam OS becomes mainstream, I will never boot Windows anywhere ever again. Windows does NOT care. What kind of OS comes with bloatware out of the box??? So many bugs. So many bs out of the box behaviours when installing that require secret recipes from the internet to work around. No thanks.

39 points by LorenDB 2y ago

Of course, most Windows 10 PCs don't have the newer hardware to upgrade to Windows 11. They are stuck at 10 and when support runs out it will run out.

Our_Benefactors 2y ago
They walked back the official TPM requirement
precommunicator 2y ago
Doesn't seem to be the case anymore: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42369757
- seplox 2y ago
  That article was incorrect when written and has since been retracted. The link now takes you to a rewrite that reaffirms Microsoft's commitment to TPM v2 and that reports Microsoft's current position that they reserve the right to break your computer if you install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware.

DanAtC 2y ago

IoT LTSC is supported until 2032

booi 2y ago
I don’t think you can run the IoT version for general purpose use. Also if you’re using windows on an IoT device…
- bcraven 2y ago
  https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise/overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/iot-enterprise... Enterprise IoT is "binary equivalent" to Enterprise.
  - eutropia 2y ago
    > Note: Microsoft does not publish feature updates through Windows Update for devices running Windows IoT Enterprise LTSC. This sounds like a strict upgrade to consumer-grade windows... How does an enterprising user get a legal hold on one of those licenses?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bcraven 2y ago
      It is possible to change your Windows edition using open-source tools: https://massgrave.dev/change_windows_edition https://massgrave.dev/change_windows_edition
      - xeonmc 2y ago
        Should link this article instead https://massgrave.dev/windows10_eol https://massgrave.dev/windows10_eol
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
      The other child comments are responding with how to obtain this in a way that is of questionable legality, which I think is not what you are asking. The officially blessed Microsoft way is essentially not available to non-enterprise customers, and it's only available to some subset of enterprise customers from my understanding. And that the cost to acquire the license is quite expensive.
- thisrod 2y ago
  Also if you’re using windows on an IoT device… Microsoft is using IoT in a loose sense. The "thing" could be an industrial PC at the train station that plays a recorded message saying the 8:15 will run late today.

SirMaster 2y ago

You mean 10 months of free support remaining. Pretty sure there is going to be an option to pay for additional support duration even for home users. And there is an edition of Windows 10 that is supported until 2032, so it's not like they aren't still doing security patches anyway. I would be willing to bet MS may even decide to extend the free support duration. But if they hold out on making that decision until the last minute, they can still persuade more users to switch to W11. So if they are going to extend the free support, I wouldn't expect to hear about that until much closer to October.

Dig1t 2y ago

The fact that all my existing computers are incompatible with the new version of Windows and that I need to buy all new machines is the dumbest decision ever. I resent Microsoft’s decision and do not plan on ever upgrading to 11 because of it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

gjvc 2y ago

64-bit Windows XP with the 2000 look and feel was the peak

layer8 2y ago
Even Windows 7 with that classic look enabled was still fine.
- gjvc 2y ago
  wow. never knew. will try. thank you! :-)

gorjusborg 2y ago

Anyone else here holding out? I am a hold out on upgrading, but mostly because of what I gather Microsoft's vision of the future of computing. They took a page out of Apple's notebook, the one where the user doesn't know what they want, the company does. Apparently we want: - A requirement of a non-local Microsoft account to install or use it, with no opt-out - An AI subsystem that tracks everything we do on the machine - Requirement to upgrade hardware to install the OS - Ads in our face - A worse start menu - A worse taskbar - Dark patterns to get us to accept it all I just want to buy an operating system for my hardware, not have Microsoft claim said hardware as their property. I'm the landlord, not the OS developer. I'll be using Windows 10 until I can't any longer for things that require Windows. For everything else, Linux.

skirmish 2y ago
I worked around several of those pain points: - A requirement of a non-local Microsoft account to install or use it, with no opt-out With some effort, you can use local account: https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-microsoft-account https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-mi... - Ads in our face - A worse start menu - A worse taskbar Fix Explorer with Explorer Patcher: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher . It was unusable otherwise for me.
- NBJack 2y ago
  > With some effort, you can use local account For now. Microsoft has been trying to close that for a while, and I suspect the only thing keeping some of it alive is the stark security requirements some of their corporate/business customers mandate.
- gausswho 2y ago
  The existence of these workarounds allow Microsoft to achieve their goals. It doesn't behoove them to tighten the screws completely, because they still get to capture the vast majority who do what they're told to. And after enough years of acceptance of surveillance creep, the Overton window will have shifted enough that subverting these controls will be perceived by normies as suspicious behavior.

y-c-o-m-b 2y ago

I've got one machine and a VM on Windows 11, but I use Windows 10 on my primary gaming laptop and work laptop. People always ask me why I'm still on Windows 10. Obviously there's nothing I can do about the enterprise version installed on my work laptop, so let's just focus on the gaming one. It's got an i7-11800H, RTX 3080, 64GB of RAM, and a Samsung 990 PRO nvme drive. When I bought it, it came installed with Windows 11. Even with the proclaimed performance enhancements of Windows 11, this laptop seemed quite slow for the specs it was sporting. I decided to revert back to Windows 10 and all of a sudden we're flying. I've tried on one other occasion to upgrade with Windows 11, but the performance just does not match up. I don't understand the problem, but it's the primary reason for keeping me on the platform. The other reasons for staying on Windows 10 are: no ads, less telemetry (although I disable this with Windows de-bloater and O&O shut-up anyway), and more intuitive interface. I hate having to customize the shit out of Windows 11 to get the experience that was out of the box on Windows 10; things like start menu placement, context menu behavior, taskbar settings, notifications, etc. I wish I could switch over to Linux, I truly do, but it's still not ready. I recently tried out Linux Mint and immediately ran into an issue with my mouse wheel + back/forward buttons not working. Off to search for the solution and the level of effort to get it working right seemed in line with operations tasks I have to deal with at my FAANG job. I don't have the time, energy, nor patience for this bullshit just to get my mouse working properly. Imagine the hoops I'll have to jump through for all my games to work right. Also when I raise grievances like this with the Linux crowd, I either get the "try this distro" (which has its own problems) or some snarky answer. So yeah, we're not there yet.

chis 2y ago

What is going to happen with this? It’s pretty unimaginable that Windows would drop support for 30% of PCs or whatever, exposing them all to viruses. It seems like everyone will be forced to switch to Linux or something. Obviously I’m not going to upgrade my perfectly good CPU to make windows happy.

joshmarinacci 2y ago
How would everyone be forced to switch to another OS? These machines won’t suddenly refuse to boot.
layer8 2y ago
There will be paid security updates from Microsoft [0], 0patch [1] (if you trust them), the LTSC version (which however takes you back to 21H2), and lastly you can still take your chances with just Windows Defender signature updates. I know a couple of people who still run Windows 7, including a security researcher (and not for research purposes), which still receives Microsoft Defender signature updates. [0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended-security-updates https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended... [1] https://blog.0patch.com/2024/06/long-live-windows-10-with-0patch.html https://blog.0patch.com/2024/06/long-live-windows-10-with-0p...
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
I don't think security updates are actually that important
kjellsbells 2y ago
Cloud PC might leap to the fore here, sold as a way to get "the latest Windows goodness" without needing anything more than a minimal client and decent Internet. It would solve all the patching issues, give Microsoft excellent data on how people use "their" computers, and generate a little cash on the side. Then windows on the desktop could shrivel over time to just be a stub and a client.

Dembrush 2y ago

I know Rufus allows you to bypass certain requirements like Secure Boot and TPM 2.0, does anyone know if it can cause issues?

layer8 2y ago
So far it doesn’t. But Windows 11 24H2 now requires support for the POPCNT instruction and otherwise won’t boot, which excludes some older CPUs. Conceivably future Windows 11 updates will add further hard requirements like that.

terribleperson 2y ago

I have, unfortunately, upgraded to Windows 11. As far as I can tell, it's Windows 10 but worse in a number of ways. It sucks. My first several hours with Windows 11, I was constantly sending a friend things that had changed for the worse. I don't think there are any user-facing improvements that Windows 11 brings, which really isn't a surprise.

sp_c 2y ago
I do like the tabbed explorer... that is nice.
- terribleperson 2y ago
  That's fair, the tabs are nice. If only they hadn't killed the file menu, the address bar, and sane navigation in the process.

NBJack 2y ago

It's a sad state of bad features, unwanted behavior, reduced functionality, and regular regressions in behavior/performance. Honestly, it's an embarrassing situation for them that shows how much they've lost whatever way they had left. https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-windows-11-24h2-bug-list-12-reasons-to-avoid-this-update-for-now/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-windows-11-24h2-bug-list-1... And let's not forget the biggest layoffs in 2022 were on the QA teams. It shows.

t_mann 2y ago

Didn't MS once say something to the effect that Windows 10 would be the 'last' major Windows version and that they'd switch to a more continuous update model? In reality, it was probably one of the versions with the shortest time until the update was announced. Windows 11 reminds me of the old rule that every other Windows version is best skipped.

daveoc64 2y ago
>Didn't MS once say something to the effect that Windows 10 would be the 'last' major Windows version and that they'd switch to a more continuous update model? No, a Microsoft employee said something to that effect in a speech in 2015, but it wasn't an official statement.

harimau777 2y ago

I think that the problem might be that people don't trust that Windows 11 isn't enshittified somehow relative to 10 or that the upgrade won't screw them over somehow. Seems like corporate bad behavior coming back to bite us.

spl757 2y ago

I've been running Gnu/Linux for my desktop for over a decade. If I can't make a windows app work in my preferred OS, I just don't use it. There is a decent free alternative almost everything and I can make do with that.

sensanaty 2y ago

I just built a new PC literally yesterday and decided to try Win11. It has been shocking how terrible of an experience it is. The very first thing I saw was TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and some other bloatware apps installed in the start menu (this is a Pro install, not Home edition) The start menu itself is basically just a copy of a mobile phone's home screen. I can no longer place my taskbar to the top as I've done for the last 20 years. A disgusting amount of telemetry is enabled by default, including what is basically a keylogger, and I don't trust them for a second that they actually stop sending everything through even if you disable it in the group policy editor. The right-click context menu requires 2 clicks to get the usual list of actions. In order to change to the dark theme, you have to login with a microsoft account. Many other settings are also disabled until you login. Edge gives you a truly pathetic nag if you type in Firefox on Bing. It constantly nags at you afterwards. I actually laughed out loud at how sad and pathetic it was, literally begging you to keep using Edge. Explorer hangs constantly and is infuriatingly slow, even on my extremely fast and for now empty SSD. Search is useless despite the indexing feature. I could go on. There're some small nice improvements like better dark mode support (though still not perfect and there's still lots of legacy windows). HDR support is better. The new settings app is better if only cause things aren't split between the control panel and it anymore. However there being ads and suggested items popping up in my start menu disgusts me. The fact that you have to debloat the OS yourself, find 3rd party tools to fix all the garbage decisions M$ made, all for what basically amounts to microscopic sidegrades compared to Win10 just makes it a nogo. I don't care about security "updates", I'll be using Win10 for a long, long time.

andriesm 2y ago

Only use WIN on dedicated games-only computer. Please save us, Steam OS!! Once Steam OS becomes mainstream, I will never boot Windows anywhere ever again. Windows does NOT care. What kind of OS comes with bloatware out of the box??? So many bugs. So many bs out of the box behaviours when installing that require secret recipes from the internet to work around. No thanks.