7 ms·

>Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981. Based on various interviews about the history of Zildjian & Sabian brothers splitting up, the Sabian Canada

by jasode 2y ago

>Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981. Based on various interviews about the history of Zildjian & Sabian brothers splitting up, the Sabian Canada factory was originally a Zildjian 2nd site purposely placed outside of the USA. The brothers felt the Zildjian Canada factory solved 2 problems: 1) contingency factory that wasn't affected by unionizing labor in Boston MA. 2) easier (cheaper?) export logistics to Europe market from Canada. Don't remember the exact details. Deep link to Robert Zildjian interview talking in "polite language" about the union labor unrest as one motivation for creating the Canada factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s Another interview talked about the Europe market but I can't find that video. That Sabian interview always stuck with me because it isn't just the big companies like Amazon, Tesla, Starbucks, etc avoiding unionization. It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. Another video somewhere had the other Zildjian brother (Armand) talk about the unions but he wasn't as polite. EDIT to add another interview from Paul Francis (podcast mp3) about Zildjian opening the Canada factory in 1968 in response to the Teamsters unionization efforts in the USA. Relevant section starts at 45m20s : https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-paul-francis-director-of-cymbal-innovation-for-zildjian-cymbals https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-pa...

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. It's surprising to you that no businesses of any size like unions? It's like finding out mice don't like cats regardless of size.
- mydriasis 2y ago
  Is the implication that the employees of the company are the cats and not the mice?
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Well, the unions are the cats. The individual employees... not so much.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    The employees are the grain I guess.
- fakedang 2y ago
  In their defence, the implementation of unions in the US is a bastardization of the concept. Just a bunch of fat cats making bank at the top while looking out for their own interests. Look at the Teamsters or the dockworkers union currently for example.
- bluGill 2y ago
  There are companies that get along just fine with their unions. There are a number of advantages to the company of having a good union. Most unions think their job is to fight management though and so are full of anti-management propaganda and so workers who are well treated convince themselves they need to stick it to the evil management. Thus ensuring management and the union cannot get along. Don't read the above as saying that management is all good. Only that unions often needless make things worse.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >There are companies that get along just fine with their unions. Which are these companies?
kjellsbells 2y ago
> It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So... Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast, and for all the good that some of them do, there are or were many that simply took the dues and bought nice houses for the leadership. When anti-union legislators started poking about in the 1970s there were plenty of workers all too happy to give the union the middle finger, based on their own experiences of being ignored, mistreated, or horrified by the local union. (That's not to imply that the legislators had workers' interests at heart, of course.)
- poulsbohemian 2y ago
  >Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So... Which is an interesting perspective in its own way, as for example when Volkswagen came to the US, they demanded that employees unionize as they felt it would allow greater stability by having content employees and a single entity to negotiate with.
  - alvah 2y ago
    VW likely expected their relationship with unions in the US to be similar to Germany (from my understanding, the relationship between large companies, unions and government in Germany is somewhat unusual). I assume the reality came as a bit of a shock!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bboygravity 2y ago
  If I'm not mistaking the maffia also had a big part in unions?
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
jerikmangs 2y ago
What happened with Paul Francis? There must have been some sort of shakeup in the company. He was the front person and lead cymbal maker for so long —practically his entire life — and all of a sudden he was gone without any official word.
- speed_spread 2y ago
  Being the CEO of a cymbal company is hard. You ride and then you crash.

by jasode 2y ago

Cumpiler69 2y ago

>It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. It's surprising to you that no businesses of any size like unions? It's like finding out mice don't like cats regardless of size.

mydriasis 2y ago
Is the implication that the employees of the company are the cats and not the mice?
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Well, the unions are the cats. The individual employees... not so much.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  The employees are the grain I guess.
fakedang 2y ago
In their defence, the implementation of unions in the US is a bastardization of the concept. Just a bunch of fat cats making bank at the top while looking out for their own interests. Look at the Teamsters or the dockworkers union currently for example.
bluGill 2y ago
There are companies that get along just fine with their unions. There are a number of advantages to the company of having a good union. Most unions think their job is to fight management though and so are full of anti-management propaganda and so workers who are well treated convince themselves they need to stick it to the evil management. Thus ensuring management and the union cannot get along. Don't read the above as saying that management is all good. Only that unions often needless make things worse.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >There are companies that get along just fine with their unions. Which are these companies?

kjellsbells 2y ago

> It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So... Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast, and for all the good that some of them do, there are or were many that simply took the dues and bought nice houses for the leadership. When anti-union legislators started poking about in the 1970s there were plenty of workers all too happy to give the union the middle finger, based on their own experiences of being ignored, mistreated, or horrified by the local union. (That's not to imply that the legislators had workers' interests at heart, of course.)

poulsbohemian 2y ago
>Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So... Which is an interesting perspective in its own way, as for example when Volkswagen came to the US, they demanded that employees unionize as they felt it would allow greater stability by having content employees and a single entity to negotiate with.
- alvah 2y ago
  VW likely expected their relationship with unions in the US to be similar to Germany (from my understanding, the relationship between large companies, unions and government in Germany is somewhat unusual). I assume the reality came as a bit of a shock!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bboygravity 2y ago
If I'm not mistaking the maffia also had a big part in unions?
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago

jerikmangs 2y ago

What happened with Paul Francis? There must have been some sort of shakeup in the company. He was the front person and lead cymbal maker for so long —practically his entire life — and all of a sudden he was gone without any official word.

speed_spread 2y ago
Being the CEO of a cymbal company is hard. You ride and then you crash.