4 ms·

Elon Musk, Vivek Ramaswamy call remote work a 'Covid-era privilege.'

15 points by belter 2y ago

Terr_ 2y ago
So does this misleadingly-named private think-tank have any actual data or math to support this idea that forcing federal workers to commute would truly reduce government spending? It sounds like the duo are blithely declaring it because they want the US government to (inefficiently, corruptly) pick a policy that makes it easier for them to push the same ideas at private companies they are invested in. Plus there's a profound lack of moral suasion here. I mean, this is coming from ultra-privileged people with private jets, chauffeurs to drive them, multiple homes with home-offices, and probably an abysmal metric of "max workdays making the same commute in 2024".
- oldpersonintx 2y ago
  [dead]
drannex 2y ago
Which was highly successful, allowed for more productivity (the human species, like others, has performance gains when in comfortable and safe environments not befouled by exaggerated social animosities and fake niceties), aided those in marginalized (GSM, disabled) communities to complete work at the same level of interaction with others, and showed that most in-the-office activities are useless and hurts workers emotionally/physically. The problem for them? They can't spy on and control your employees, which is what they want. They don't want their workers to have freedom, they want them to be slaves both in mentality and time, the most valuable aspects of our limited lives. This, with the added benefit, that anyone who doesn't "tow-the-line" will quit, reducing severance packages, etc. It's a harassment tactic to not pay out and force others to quit. Perhaps those two should be required to be in a single office, all day, every day. Oh - that's right! They won't because it's a fucking nightmare and a waste of time, they are both paranoid messes and want to ensure they can track everything and everyone at all times. Must be great to be at the top to stifle the bottom. tl;dr: They just want to spy on and control their employees, they know that remote working is highly effective, as they and their executive teams all do it, they just don't want others to have what used to be 'their special executive privilege'.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  tl;dr: They just want to spy on and control their employees, guessing you are not a govie but EVERYTHING we do is fully controlled, including keystroke capture software and every other imaginable software you can think of that can tell exactly what you are doing every single second of the work day (or night)... it is even easier to spy and control remote workers than at-office workers - I have to do EVERYTHING now on the computer while at the office I can go to the breakroom and shit on Vivek and Must for hours :)
  - drannex 2y ago
    Trust me, the kind of surveillance they do on a corporate level, in office, is far more intrusive than you would ever believe. There should be laws to protect workers like this, but this won't happen as it hurts the corporations in charge.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      not sure what they can do extra at the office other than put cameras in the bathroom :) our lives and work are mostly digital so honestly I don’t think surveillance is that much more prevalent in the office.
- magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
  There are additional, multiple, overlapping and competing pressures: - Commercial real-estate owners pressure on tenant corporations to utilize buildings, which then pass it on to their employees - Pressure to use their owned real-estate - Investor and peer pressure for corporate management to do what everyone else is doing - Control through compliance
- qbxk 2y ago
  i think it's "toe the line" ie, put your foot right where they told you to, follow rules rigidly
  - drannex 2y ago
billy99k 2y ago
I've been working remotely for over a decade as a consultant/contractor. Contracts have almost always had remote options available. Remote FTE work when I started was almost non-existent. I remember turning down multiple offers because they wouldn't allow me to work remotely. The main issue I see is that many businesses just aren't equipped to manage employees remotely. Covid forced their hand and it worked in some cases. If you want to work remotely, start contracting and have it in your contract (I do). Begging companies to change their mind on it will only go so far.
mcflubbins 2y ago
I've been fully remote since 2017 and worked REALLY hard to be able to gain the trust and obtain the privilege from the employer who let me try it out. One other person tried it at that company before COVID, following my pattern but failed to be productive at home and didn't earn said privilege. They even admitted that they just didn't get much done. It's not for everyone. When the whole world went remote during COVID I knew most of the people doing so were not adequately prepared (through no fault of their own to be fair) and others would game the system and eventually the suits would come for all remote workers. Seems to be happening now.
SavageBeast 2y ago
It's worth a 20 minute rabbit hole dive to research Vivek's background a bit. Compare his accomplishments to the accolades (seemingly?) heaped on him. Love or hate Musk, his remarkable qualifications are undeniable. They are not the same breed of animal. I put this out there simply to draw some attention to the question of exactly who are we "taking direction" from and on what basis? Why?
- Zigurd 2y ago
  TBF he has a blog.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    He has a blog. Musk has X. They are not equivalent. Or was your post more sarcasm, and I missed it?
- SavageBeast 2y ago
  Also, when every house rep and every senator is on their respective floor and participates in each and every vote, I'll entertain the validity of RTO. Until then its just a means of soft-firing people. If they can't be productive OUTSIDE the office, they're likely no productive IN the office.
- hilux 2y ago
  Your second paragraph – you might have a point, but to be fair, the same could be said for pretty much every person in high office. (In other words: what's your control?) Even as a liberal, what bugs the heck out of me is that almost no Democratic politician/functionary has ever worked in the private sector in any meaningful way. How can they understand anything about the way the business world works, or should work? Answer: they don't.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    Same can be said about showman going into world politics.
  - 2y ago
legitster 2y ago
Our company went completely remote. Turns out it was a ruse to layoff everyone and offshore 70% of the company to India. As a remote worker, I think the move to remote work is a little naïve. From a company's perspective, if a faceless person from Iowa can do the job just as effectively as someone on site, then you may as well commit and get someone from Bangalore who can do it even cheaper. This middle ground argument that you need to be open to talent from anywhere, but that you should still pay a premium for domestic talent makes no sense to an emotionless organization. That said, the feudalistic tech management bros that makes these decisions needs to get their heads out of their butts. The problem isn't just that people don't want to go into the office - it's that the cities these jobs are in are overstuffed and underplanned and suck to raise a family. Having only 6-7 job markets in the entire US for tech workers continues to be dumb and short-sighted, both for cost effeciency as well as the politics of it.
- hilux 2y ago
  > Having only 6-7 job markets in the entire US for tech workers continues to be dumb and short-sighted That may be true, but it's also true that for many educated people, and especially for people who are non-white, much of the US is just not a very attractive place to live. Amazing observation about the "world,s richest country," but it's true. I wish more US cities had public transit, and diversity of food and people, and broad cultural choices, and good race relations ... but they mostly don't. And even if the city is livable, you're surrounded by a rural MAGAscape.
johncearls 2y ago
This is very clearly an attempt to get government employees to quit. They are not shy about stating that. It is hard to fire civil servants, and this is an attempt to get around civil service protections. Whether you agree or disagree that we need to downsize the government drastically and whether this is an ethical way to achieve that goal is a personal opinion. One every American has a right to have. This has nothing to do with the standard "WFH is good or bad style" conversations on here regularly.
gibbitz 2y ago
Our CEO can work from wherever he wants and makes 240x what I make. I want his butt in a seat in the office that's a 45 minute drive from his house 5 days a week. I'd be happy to take a 240x raise to give up 8 hours a week to commuting, he should too.

15 points by belter 2y ago

So does this misleadingly-named private think-tank have any actual data or math to support this idea that forcing federal workers to commute would truly reduce government spending? It sounds like the duo are blithely declaring it because they want the US government to (inefficiently, corruptly) pick a policy that makes it easier for them to push the same ideas at private companies they are invested in. Plus there's a profound lack of moral suasion here. I mean, this is coming from ultra-privileged people with private jets, chauffeurs to drive them, multiple homes with home-offices, and probably an abysmal metric of "max workdays making the same commute in 2024".

oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]

drannex 2y ago

Which was highly successful, allowed for more productivity (the human species, like others, has performance gains when in comfortable and safe environments not befouled by exaggerated social animosities and fake niceties), aided those in marginalized (GSM, disabled) communities to complete work at the same level of interaction with others, and showed that most in-the-office activities are useless and hurts workers emotionally/physically. The problem for them? They can't spy on and control your employees, which is what they want. They don't want their workers to have freedom, they want them to be slaves both in mentality and time, the most valuable aspects of our limited lives. This, with the added benefit, that anyone who doesn't "tow-the-line" will quit, reducing severance packages, etc. It's a harassment tactic to not pay out and force others to quit. Perhaps those two should be required to be in a single office, all day, every day. Oh - that's right! They won't because it's a fucking nightmare and a waste of time, they are both paranoid messes and want to ensure they can track everything and everyone at all times. Must be great to be at the top to stifle the bottom. tl;dr: They just want to spy on and control their employees, they know that remote working is highly effective, as they and their executive teams all do it, they just don't want others to have what used to be 'their special executive privilege'.

bdangubic 2y ago
tl;dr: They just want to spy on and control their employees, guessing you are not a govie but EVERYTHING we do is fully controlled, including keystroke capture software and every other imaginable software you can think of that can tell exactly what you are doing every single second of the work day (or night)... it is even easier to spy and control remote workers than at-office workers - I have to do EVERYTHING now on the computer while at the office I can go to the breakroom and shit on Vivek and Must for hours :)
- drannex 2y ago
  Trust me, the kind of surveillance they do on a corporate level, in office, is far more intrusive than you would ever believe. There should be laws to protect workers like this, but this won't happen as it hurts the corporations in charge.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    not sure what they can do extra at the office other than put cameras in the bathroom :) our lives and work are mostly digital so honestly I don’t think surveillance is that much more prevalent in the office.
magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
There are additional, multiple, overlapping and competing pressures: - Commercial real-estate owners pressure on tenant corporations to utilize buildings, which then pass it on to their employees - Pressure to use their owned real-estate - Investor and peer pressure for corporate management to do what everyone else is doing - Control through compliance
qbxk 2y ago
i think it's "toe the line" ie, put your foot right where they told you to, follow rules rigidly
- drannex 2y ago

billy99k 2y ago

I've been working remotely for over a decade as a consultant/contractor. Contracts have almost always had remote options available. Remote FTE work when I started was almost non-existent. I remember turning down multiple offers because they wouldn't allow me to work remotely. The main issue I see is that many businesses just aren't equipped to manage employees remotely. Covid forced their hand and it worked in some cases. If you want to work remotely, start contracting and have it in your contract (I do). Begging companies to change their mind on it will only go so far.

mcflubbins 2y ago

I've been fully remote since 2017 and worked REALLY hard to be able to gain the trust and obtain the privilege from the employer who let me try it out. One other person tried it at that company before COVID, following my pattern but failed to be productive at home and didn't earn said privilege. They even admitted that they just didn't get much done. It's not for everyone. When the whole world went remote during COVID I knew most of the people doing so were not adequately prepared (through no fault of their own to be fair) and others would game the system and eventually the suits would come for all remote workers. Seems to be happening now.

SavageBeast 2y ago

It's worth a 20 minute rabbit hole dive to research Vivek's background a bit. Compare his accomplishments to the accolades (seemingly?) heaped on him. Love or hate Musk, his remarkable qualifications are undeniable. They are not the same breed of animal. I put this out there simply to draw some attention to the question of exactly who are we "taking direction" from and on what basis? Why?

Zigurd 2y ago
TBF he has a blog.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  He has a blog. Musk has X. They are not equivalent. Or was your post more sarcasm, and I missed it?
SavageBeast 2y ago
Also, when every house rep and every senator is on their respective floor and participates in each and every vote, I'll entertain the validity of RTO. Until then its just a means of soft-firing people. If they can't be productive OUTSIDE the office, they're likely no productive IN the office.
hilux 2y ago
Your second paragraph – you might have a point, but to be fair, the same could be said for pretty much every person in high office. (In other words: what's your control?) Even as a liberal, what bugs the heck out of me is that almost no Democratic politician/functionary has ever worked in the private sector in any meaningful way. How can they understand anything about the way the business world works, or should work? Answer: they don't.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  Same can be said about showman going into world politics.
- 2y ago

legitster 2y ago

Our company went completely remote. Turns out it was a ruse to layoff everyone and offshore 70% of the company to India. As a remote worker, I think the move to remote work is a little naïve. From a company's perspective, if a faceless person from Iowa can do the job just as effectively as someone on site, then you may as well commit and get someone from Bangalore who can do it even cheaper. This middle ground argument that you need to be open to talent from anywhere, but that you should still pay a premium for domestic talent makes no sense to an emotionless organization. That said, the feudalistic tech management bros that makes these decisions needs to get their heads out of their butts. The problem isn't just that people don't want to go into the office - it's that the cities these jobs are in are overstuffed and underplanned and suck to raise a family. Having only 6-7 job markets in the entire US for tech workers continues to be dumb and short-sighted, both for cost effeciency as well as the politics of it.

hilux 2y ago
> Having only 6-7 job markets in the entire US for tech workers continues to be dumb and short-sighted That may be true, but it's also true that for many educated people, and especially for people who are non-white, much of the US is just not a very attractive place to live. Amazing observation about the "world,s richest country," but it's true. I wish more US cities had public transit, and diversity of food and people, and broad cultural choices, and good race relations ... but they mostly don't. And even if the city is livable, you're surrounded by a rural MAGAscape.

johncearls 2y ago

This is very clearly an attempt to get government employees to quit. They are not shy about stating that. It is hard to fire civil servants, and this is an attempt to get around civil service protections. Whether you agree or disagree that we need to downsize the government drastically and whether this is an ethical way to achieve that goal is a personal opinion. One every American has a right to have. This has nothing to do with the standard "WFH is good or bad style" conversations on here regularly.

gibbitz 2y ago

Our CEO can work from wherever he wants and makes 240x what I make. I want his butt in a seat in the office that's a 45 minute drive from his house 5 days a week. I'd be happy to take a 240x raise to give up 8 hours a week to commuting, he should too.