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I agree. I have made a lot of recent purchases of things for which I would be willing to pay a premium for something better (e.g. more durable washing machine)

I agree. I have made a lot of recent purchases of things for which I would be willing to pay a premium for something better (e.g. more durable washing machine) but where I settled for cheap and not obviously bad because I do not know how to verify the more expensive option is actually higher quality. > And then proves it by giving contradictory examples like "people don't care about quality, they will just listen to ABBA or go to the Louvre". True. IMO what is in the Louvre is of higher quality than anything you are likely to find in "some little art gallery showcasing new artists". Is the article seriously arguing that it is probable that some little gallery will have works better than the Mona Lisa?

indigoabstract 2y ago
I'm not sure if quality is objective or subjective, especially when referring to art. I read this anecdote somewhere: A visitor to the Louvre in Paris viewed the renowned Mona Lisa and stated loudly: "That painting is nothing special. I am unimpressed." A curator who was standing nearby said: "Sir, the painting is not on trial. You are." Could have said the same thing about "Starry Night".
- palata 2y ago
  Not sure why you are being downvoted here... But yeah, defining "quality" may be difficult for art. Maybe rather for contemporary art, though. I think we tend to have some kind of consensus for older art? Then for instance in cinema, I think it's pretty objective. It doesn't have to be related to how popular the movie is, though.
  - indigoabstract 2y ago
    Yes, it's puzzling to me how posterity can tell if something has the quality to stand the test of time, but we, the contemporaries, cannot. Though it seems that eventually, remarkable work does find its way up, even if the authors might not be around to enjoy the belated appraisal. And in that case, what more can one do but do the work and hope for the best?
- ben_w 2y ago
  > A visitor to the Louvre in Paris viewed the renowned Mona Lisa and stated loudly: "That painting is nothing special. I am unimpressed." A curator who was standing nearby said: "Sir, the painting is not on trial. You are." I wonder, is the quote trying to say something about pretentious audiences, or about pretentious curators? The Mona Lisa is famous in no small part because it was stolen. Its fame gave it appeal, as did its out-of-copyright status that allowed so many derivatives. Now, I'm not saying "it's terrible", just "it's overrated" and "standards have risen". People speak of Lisa del Giocondo's "enigmatic expression": I see simply a neutral, resting face, there is no enigma for me. The composition? No, the background has some of the flaws used today to identify AI generated images: Look at the waterline on the right, just below her eye-line, that's at an angle, and contradicts the elements on the other side of her head. This isn't to diss Leonardo, he and his peers had to invent a lot from first principles, and that's much more difficult than learning the same techniques from others; but at the same time, the fact that we don't need to invent it all from scratch and we can learn from others, means that it's much easier to get to a higher quality standard today — and the corollary, if you want to be seen as a genius on the level of Leonardo, the bar is much higher than "do what Leonardo did with the Mona Lisa". I prefer the version in Prado, Madrid: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gioconda_(copia_del_Museo_del_Prado_restaurada).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gioconda_(copia_del_... (Now one I will say "it's terrible", to the horror of those that love it, is Der Kuss by Klimt: the woman's head is at such an angle it seems to have been disconnected from her body, rotated 90°, and reattached at the ear).
  - indigoabstract 2y ago
    Possibly both, I guess we're not the first ones to wonder why it's so famous. She isn't even a good looking lady, but obviously the painting must have something going for it, or some other painting would take its place. I would put Starry Night in that place if it were my decision to make. But it's not.
    - Vampiero 2y ago
      > but obviously the painting must have something going for it, or some other painting would take its place. that's exactly what everyone else thinks, and so they just take it for granted
- wruza 2y ago
  “We all agreed to breathe harder when talking about it, and you have no right of vote here”. That’s how I perceive this art thing. It often is objective, but it’s always amplified 100x+ by some heavy breath and tonal attitude. General subjectivity doesn’t even have a voice here. That curator could use a good collar grab stare.
  - palata 2y ago
    Doesn't it also happen in software? :-)
    - wruza 2y ago
      All the time.
tshaddox 2y ago
Which washing machine did you get? I researched them a bit last year when I needed to buy one (for the first time in my life) and my takeaway was basically that all the "premium" models are crap now too, except perhaps for a few quasi-commercial models (Speed Queen comes up a lot) that are probably more reliable and repairable but also loud and rough on clothing.
iamflimflam1 2y ago
The problem is that nowadays even companies that have/had a reputation for high quality are cutting corners to increase their margins.
- dirtbag__dad 2y ago
  This. I used to spend time researching more premium purchases. Now either the quality of the brands I love has diminished, their prices have skyrocketed, or there are too many players thanks to the ease of standing up e-commerce that I fall back to the mid-range thing. This is especially true with clothes.

indigoabstract 2y ago

I'm not sure if quality is objective or subjective, especially when referring to art. I read this anecdote somewhere: A visitor to the Louvre in Paris viewed the renowned Mona Lisa and stated loudly: "That painting is nothing special. I am unimpressed." A curator who was standing nearby said: "Sir, the painting is not on trial. You are." Could have said the same thing about "Starry Night".

palata 2y ago
Not sure why you are being downvoted here... But yeah, defining "quality" may be difficult for art. Maybe rather for contemporary art, though. I think we tend to have some kind of consensus for older art? Then for instance in cinema, I think it's pretty objective. It doesn't have to be related to how popular the movie is, though.
- indigoabstract 2y ago
  Yes, it's puzzling to me how posterity can tell if something has the quality to stand the test of time, but we, the contemporaries, cannot. Though it seems that eventually, remarkable work does find its way up, even if the authors might not be around to enjoy the belated appraisal. And in that case, what more can one do but do the work and hope for the best?
ben_w 2y ago
> A visitor to the Louvre in Paris viewed the renowned Mona Lisa and stated loudly: "That painting is nothing special. I am unimpressed." A curator who was standing nearby said: "Sir, the painting is not on trial. You are." I wonder, is the quote trying to say something about pretentious audiences, or about pretentious curators? The Mona Lisa is famous in no small part because it was stolen. Its fame gave it appeal, as did its out-of-copyright status that allowed so many derivatives. Now, I'm not saying "it's terrible", just "it's overrated" and "standards have risen". People speak of Lisa del Giocondo's "enigmatic expression": I see simply a neutral, resting face, there is no enigma for me. The composition? No, the background has some of the flaws used today to identify AI generated images: Look at the waterline on the right, just below her eye-line, that's at an angle, and contradicts the elements on the other side of her head. This isn't to diss Leonardo, he and his peers had to invent a lot from first principles, and that's much more difficult than learning the same techniques from others; but at the same time, the fact that we don't need to invent it all from scratch and we can learn from others, means that it's much easier to get to a higher quality standard today — and the corollary, if you want to be seen as a genius on the level of Leonardo, the bar is much higher than "do what Leonardo did with the Mona Lisa". I prefer the version in Prado, Madrid: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gioconda_(copia_del_Museo_del_Prado_restaurada).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gioconda_(copia_del_... (Now one I will say "it's terrible", to the horror of those that love it, is Der Kuss by Klimt: the woman's head is at such an angle it seems to have been disconnected from her body, rotated 90°, and reattached at the ear).
- indigoabstract 2y ago
  Possibly both, I guess we're not the first ones to wonder why it's so famous. She isn't even a good looking lady, but obviously the painting must have something going for it, or some other painting would take its place. I would put Starry Night in that place if it were my decision to make. But it's not.
  - Vampiero 2y ago
    > but obviously the painting must have something going for it, or some other painting would take its place. that's exactly what everyone else thinks, and so they just take it for granted
wruza 2y ago
“We all agreed to breathe harder when talking about it, and you have no right of vote here”. That’s how I perceive this art thing. It often is objective, but it’s always amplified 100x+ by some heavy breath and tonal attitude. General subjectivity doesn’t even have a voice here. That curator could use a good collar grab stare.
- palata 2y ago
  Doesn't it also happen in software? :-)
  - wruza 2y ago
    All the time.

tshaddox 2y ago

Which washing machine did you get? I researched them a bit last year when I needed to buy one (for the first time in my life) and my takeaway was basically that all the "premium" models are crap now too, except perhaps for a few quasi-commercial models (Speed Queen comes up a lot) that are probably more reliable and repairable but also loud and rough on clothing.

iamflimflam1 2y ago

The problem is that nowadays even companies that have/had a reputation for high quality are cutting corners to increase their margins.

dirtbag__dad 2y ago
This. I used to spend time researching more premium purchases. Now either the quality of the brands I love has diminished, their prices have skyrocketed, or there are too many players thanks to the ease of standing up e-commerce that I fall back to the mid-range thing. This is especially true with clothes.