5 ms·

That's stellar sportmanship right there. Not that jupyter's team needed even more respect from the community but damn.

carreau 2y ago
I think that's fairly normal, having alternative frontends can only be beneficial to the community. I know it also look like there is a single Jupyter team, but the project is quite large, there are a lot of constraints and disagreements internally and there is not way to accomodate all users in the default jupyter install. Alternative are always welcome ; at least if they don't fragment the ecosystem by being not backward compatible with the default. Also to be fair I'm also one of the Jupyter dev that agree with many points of OP, and would have pulled it into a different direction; but regardldess I will still support people wanting to go in a different direction than mine.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  The last paragraph let me think your normal is particularly collaborative lol.
- dleeftink 2y ago
  > Alternative are always welcome; at least if they don't fragment the ecosystem by being not backward compatible with the default. Genuinely curious; what mechanisms has Jupyter introduced to prevent ecosystem fragmentation?
  - williamstein 2y ago
    The Jupyter community maintains a public spec of the notebook file format [1], the kernel protocol [2], etc. I have been involved with many alternative Jupyter clients, and having these specs combined with a friendly and welcoming community is incredibly helpful!!! [1] https://github.com/jupyter/nbformat https://github.com/jupyter/nbformat [2] https://jupyter-client.readthedocs.io/en/latest/messaging.html https://jupyter-client.readthedocs.io/en/latest/messaging.ht...
    - westurner 2y ago
      jupyter-server/enterprise_gateway: https://github.com/jupyter-server/enterprise_gateway https://github.com/jupyter-server/enterprise_gateway JupyterLab supports Lumino and React widgets. Jupyter Notebook was built on jQuery, but Notebook is now forked from JupyterLab and there's NbClassic. Breaking the notebook extension API from Notebook to Lab unfortunately caused re-work for progress, as I recall. jupyter-xeus/xeus is an "Implementation of the Jupyter kernel protocol in C++* https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus jupyter-xeus/xeus-python is a "Jupyter kernel for the Python programming language"* that's also what JupyterLite runs in WASM instead of ipykernel: https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus-python#what-are-the-advantages-of-using-xeus-python-over-ipykernel-ipython-kernel https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus-python#what-are-the-adv... JupyterLite kernels normally run in WASM; which they are compiled to by emscripten / LLVM. To also host WASM kernels in a go process, I just found: going: https://github.com/fizx/goingo https://github.com/fizx/goingo .. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26159440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26159440 Vscode and vscode.dev support wasm container runtimes now; so the Python kernel runs in WASM runs in a WASM container runs in vscode FWIU. Vscode supports polyglot notebooks that run multiple kernels, like "vatlab/sos-notebook" and "minrk/allthekernels". Defining how to share variables between kernels is the more unsolved part AFAIU. E.g. Arrow has bindings for zero-copy sharing in multiple languages. Cocalc, Zeppelin, Marimo notebook, Data Bricks, Google Colaboratory (Colab tools), and VSCode have different takes on notebooks with I/O in JSON. There is no CDATA in HTML5; so HTML within an HTML based notebook format would need to escape encode binary data in cell output, too. But the notebook format is not a packaging format. So, for reproducibility of (polyglot) notebooks there must also be a requirements.txt or an environment.yml to indicate the version+platform of each dependency in Python and other languages. repo2docker (and repo2podman) build containers by installing packages according to the first requirements .txt or environment.yml it finds according to REES Reproducible Execution Environment Standard. repo2docker includes a recent version of jupyterlab in the container. JupyterLab does not default to HTTPS with an LetsEncrypt self-signed cert but probably should, because Jupyter is a shell that can run commands as the user that owns the Jupyter kernel process. MoSH is another way to run a web-based remote terminal. Jupyter terminal is not built on MoSH Mobile Shell. jupyterlab/jupyter-collaboration for real time collaboration is based on the yjs/yjs CRDT. https://github.com/jupyterlab/jupyter-collaboration https://github.com/jupyterlab/jupyter-collaboration Cocalc's Time Slider tracks revisions to all files in a project; including latex manuscripts (for ArXiV), which - with Computer Modern fonts and two columns - are the typical output of scholarly collaboration on a ScholarlyArticle.

I think that's fairly normal, having alternative frontends can only be beneficial to the community. I know it also look like there is a single Jupyter team, but the project is quite large, there are a lot of constraints and disagreements internally and there is not way to accomodate all users in the default jupyter install. Alternative are always welcome ; at least if they don't fragment the ecosystem by being not backward compatible with the default. Also to be fair I'm also one of the Jupyter dev that agree with many points of OP, and would have pulled it into a different direction; but regardldess I will still support people wanting to go in a different direction than mine.

BiteCode_dev 2y ago
The last paragraph let me think your normal is particularly collaborative lol.
dleeftink 2y ago
> Alternative are always welcome; at least if they don't fragment the ecosystem by being not backward compatible with the default. Genuinely curious; what mechanisms has Jupyter introduced to prevent ecosystem fragmentation?
- williamstein 2y ago
  The Jupyter community maintains a public spec of the notebook file format [1], the kernel protocol [2], etc. I have been involved with many alternative Jupyter clients, and having these specs combined with a friendly and welcoming community is incredibly helpful!!! [1] https://github.com/jupyter/nbformat https://github.com/jupyter/nbformat [2] https://jupyter-client.readthedocs.io/en/latest/messaging.html https://jupyter-client.readthedocs.io/en/latest/messaging.ht...
  - westurner 2y ago
    jupyter-server/enterprise_gateway: https://github.com/jupyter-server/enterprise_gateway https://github.com/jupyter-server/enterprise_gateway JupyterLab supports Lumino and React widgets. Jupyter Notebook was built on jQuery, but Notebook is now forked from JupyterLab and there's NbClassic. Breaking the notebook extension API from Notebook to Lab unfortunately caused re-work for progress, as I recall. jupyter-xeus/xeus is an "Implementation of the Jupyter kernel protocol in C++* https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus jupyter-xeus/xeus-python is a "Jupyter kernel for the Python programming language"* that's also what JupyterLite runs in WASM instead of ipykernel: https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus-python#what-are-the-advantages-of-using-xeus-python-over-ipykernel-ipython-kernel https://github.com/jupyter-xeus/xeus-python#what-are-the-adv... JupyterLite kernels normally run in WASM; which they are compiled to by emscripten / LLVM. To also host WASM kernels in a go process, I just found: going: https://github.com/fizx/goingo https://github.com/fizx/goingo .. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26159440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26159440 Vscode and vscode.dev support wasm container runtimes now; so the Python kernel runs in WASM runs in a WASM container runs in vscode FWIU. Vscode supports polyglot notebooks that run multiple kernels, like "vatlab/sos-notebook" and "minrk/allthekernels". Defining how to share variables between kernels is the more unsolved part AFAIU. E.g. Arrow has bindings for zero-copy sharing in multiple languages. Cocalc, Zeppelin, Marimo notebook, Data Bricks, Google Colaboratory (Colab tools), and VSCode have different takes on notebooks with I/O in JSON. There is no CDATA in HTML5; so HTML within an HTML based notebook format would need to escape encode binary data in cell output, too. But the notebook format is not a packaging format. So, for reproducibility of (polyglot) notebooks there must also be a requirements.txt or an environment.yml to indicate the version+platform of each dependency in Python and other languages. repo2docker (and repo2podman) build containers by installing packages according to the first requirements .txt or environment.yml it finds according to REES Reproducible Execution Environment Standard. repo2docker includes a recent version of jupyterlab in the container. JupyterLab does not default to HTTPS with an LetsEncrypt self-signed cert but probably should, because Jupyter is a shell that can run commands as the user that owns the Jupyter kernel process. MoSH is another way to run a web-based remote terminal. Jupyter terminal is not built on MoSH Mobile Shell. jupyterlab/jupyter-collaboration for real time collaboration is based on the yjs/yjs CRDT. https://github.com/jupyterlab/jupyter-collaboration https://github.com/jupyterlab/jupyter-collaboration Cocalc's Time Slider tracks revisions to all files in a project; including latex manuscripts (for ArXiV), which - with Computer Modern fonts and two columns - are the typical output of scholarly collaboration on a ScholarlyArticle.