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> The author is correct in that media DRM is tied to GPU vendors on the field right now ... hardware backed DRM can be so much more invasive I expect mjg59 to

> The author is correct in that media DRM is tied to GPU vendors on the field right now ... hardware backed DRM can be so much more invasive I expect mjg59 to know what they're talking about but like you say, I wonder the same thing about the strength of (what you call) Media DRM v Hardware-backed DRM. GPU vendors have quietly deployed [hardware-based DRM] ... [which] works just fine on [boards] that [don't] have a TPM and will continue to do so. Work fine? Even if a section of GPU's vRAM is out of the reach of the OS (here, to implement DRM), wouldn't TPM / DICE be needed to establish trust / measure GPU's firmware?

mike_hearn 2y ago
No, the GPUs have their own hardware RoT that measures the firmware. Modern GPUs are basically parallel computers with their own RAM, bootup sequence, BIOS, operating systems (drivers and firmware together are basically an OS), compiler toolchains, debuggers, sub-drivers and so on.
- rustcleaner 2y ago
  One which needs to be opened to users/owners instead of locked away. A price-doubling 100% sales tax on Universal Machines which lock owners out like with video cards (and their firmware), should make products which are not fundamentally significantly GNU-ideals friendy unaffordable to the average consumer (and therefore not economically viable anymore). Siemens can still sell their $5MM machine for $10MM to BASF or whatever, because BASF can afford to borrow double to pay the tax, but Cletus and Dorothy will not be buying sony playstations and apple iphones because $2,000+ isn't worth it.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Good luck getting elected on such a platform. Totalitarian states can do that kind of thing, democracies not so much.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
matheusmoreira 2y ago
The GPU is a completely separate computer running proprietary software. "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. They are just some user app, to be sandboxed very far away from the real action. https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo Stallman warned everyone. Virtually nobody listened.
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  > "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. Not entirely fair. There is still a kernel and a privileged userspace layer. That hasn't changed. The OS implements a common API that abstracts over ISAs and other finnicky hardware details that are under constant short term churn. It's just that peripherals themselves have become so incredibly complex that many of them now require their own embedded systems in order to operate. The hardware was always a black box it's just that now it contains an entire embedded OS.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    > privileged userspace layer BS. Either we're privileged and can copy their precious content, or they're privileged and we cannot. The current status quo is they sit above us in the truly privileged hardware modes while we are isolated, virtualized and sandboxed for their safety. It's not our computers anymore, they're just allowing us to use them.
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      Not what I meant. For example, on most mainstream linux distributions systemd fulfills the role of privileged userspace layer that I was referring to there. > truly privileged hardware modes The presence of a hypervisor doesn't imply paravirtualized hardware. Neither does the presence of an entire OS on modern GPUs imply a reduction in kernel responsibilities. Ring 0 is still ring 0. The OS is still managing and abstracting hardware in the same way that it always was. That doesn't mean that these other things aren't concerning developments. Particularly having an entire unauditable shadow OS running on the CPU is an incredibly dystopian scenario that almost seems unbelievable. But technical accuracy is important when discussing these things.

mike_hearn 2y ago

No, the GPUs have their own hardware RoT that measures the firmware. Modern GPUs are basically parallel computers with their own RAM, bootup sequence, BIOS, operating systems (drivers and firmware together are basically an OS), compiler toolchains, debuggers, sub-drivers and so on.

rustcleaner 2y ago
One which needs to be opened to users/owners instead of locked away. A price-doubling 100% sales tax on Universal Machines which lock owners out like with video cards (and their firmware), should make products which are not fundamentally significantly GNU-ideals friendy unaffordable to the average consumer (and therefore not economically viable anymore). Siemens can still sell their $5MM machine for $10MM to BASF or whatever, because BASF can afford to borrow double to pay the tax, but Cletus and Dorothy will not be buying sony playstations and apple iphones because $2,000+ isn't worth it.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Good luck getting elected on such a platform. Totalitarian states can do that kind of thing, democracies not so much.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

matheusmoreira 2y ago

The GPU is a completely separate computer running proprietary software. "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. They are just some user app, to be sandboxed very far away from the real action. https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo https://youtu.be/36myc8wQhLo Stallman warned everyone. Virtually nobody listened.

fc417fc802 2y ago
> "Operating systems" do not operate anything anymore. Not entirely fair. There is still a kernel and a privileged userspace layer. That hasn't changed. The OS implements a common API that abstracts over ISAs and other finnicky hardware details that are under constant short term churn. It's just that peripherals themselves have become so incredibly complex that many of them now require their own embedded systems in order to operate. The hardware was always a black box it's just that now it contains an entire embedded OS.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > privileged userspace layer BS. Either we're privileged and can copy their precious content, or they're privileged and we cannot. The current status quo is they sit above us in the truly privileged hardware modes while we are isolated, virtualized and sandboxed for their safety. It's not our computers anymore, they're just allowing us to use them.
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    Not what I meant. For example, on most mainstream linux distributions systemd fulfills the role of privileged userspace layer that I was referring to there. > truly privileged hardware modes The presence of a hypervisor doesn't imply paravirtualized hardware. Neither does the presence of an entire OS on modern GPUs imply a reduction in kernel responsibilities. Ring 0 is still ring 0. The OS is still managing and abstracting hardware in the same way that it always was. That doesn't mean that these other things aren't concerning developments. Particularly having an entire unauditable shadow OS running on the CPU is an incredibly dystopian scenario that almost seems unbelievable. But technical accuracy is important when discussing these things.