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> There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that

by mopsi 2y ago

> There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.

lostmsu 2y ago
You are arguing something that I'm not. There are testimonies of witnesses that claim murder of Jews was planned and directed at e.g. Wannsee. Nothing like that exists for Holodomor.
- mopsi 2y ago
  As I said, there is no direct evidence of any kind that the highest level of the German government (in Hitler's person) had anything to do with the Holocaust, so why would you expect to find anything where the USSR's leaders explicitly stated their intentions? As for indirect evidence, there's plenty for the Holodomor too: a) Stalin and other top-ranking officials were aware of the food shortages in Ukraine, b) they knew that their policies were going to make things worse, c) they still adopted those policies, and d) they expressed satisfaction with the outcome. They deliberately allowed millions of people to die of starvation to suppress Ukrainian national identity and punish them for perceived disloyalty. If someone came to your city, confiscated all food, harshly punished any attempts to store even a minimal amount for basic survival, caused a horrific starvation that killed many people, drove survivors to such insanity that mothers ate the flesh off their living children, and still blocked all foreign aid and prevented people from leaving, then how would you call it if not deliberate mass murder?
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    Look, I don't know if you have some agenda, but otherwise I can't explain why you keep making statements that alternate between being outright false, ignoring context, moving goalposts, and drawing "parallels" that are not parallel in any sense. > the highest level of the German government Cool, that's the first time "the highest level" comes up. You started with "The Nazi regime". Do you think "The Nazi regime" is Hitler and his direct reports? How many is that? About 20 people? > there's plenty for the Holodomor too Then you list 1 single piece of "evidence" (one list of items that would implicate regime provided ALL of them are true). And it is not really an evidence, because clause "b) they knew that their policies would make things worse" is your own personal guess. I can't see how you could logically arrive that Stalin foresaw that that policy will make things worse. What evidence do you have for that claim? I kinda suspect that your evidence for it looks likes this: (a && b && c && d) => Holodomor was intentional. Holodomor was intentional. Therefore b must be true Which is problematic on two accounts: the 2nd statement is the one being debated on the first place (e.g. circular evidence), and 2 - you can't reverse implication in the first statement.

by mopsi 2y ago

> There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.

lostmsu 2y ago

You are arguing something that I'm not. There are testimonies of witnesses that claim murder of Jews was planned and directed at e.g. Wannsee. Nothing like that exists for Holodomor.

mopsi 2y ago
As I said, there is no direct evidence of any kind that the highest level of the German government (in Hitler's person) had anything to do with the Holocaust, so why would you expect to find anything where the USSR's leaders explicitly stated their intentions? As for indirect evidence, there's plenty for the Holodomor too: a) Stalin and other top-ranking officials were aware of the food shortages in Ukraine, b) they knew that their policies were going to make things worse, c) they still adopted those policies, and d) they expressed satisfaction with the outcome. They deliberately allowed millions of people to die of starvation to suppress Ukrainian national identity and punish them for perceived disloyalty. If someone came to your city, confiscated all food, harshly punished any attempts to store even a minimal amount for basic survival, caused a horrific starvation that killed many people, drove survivors to such insanity that mothers ate the flesh off their living children, and still blocked all foreign aid and prevented people from leaving, then how would you call it if not deliberate mass murder?
- lostmsu 2y ago
  Look, I don't know if you have some agenda, but otherwise I can't explain why you keep making statements that alternate between being outright false, ignoring context, moving goalposts, and drawing "parallels" that are not parallel in any sense. > the highest level of the German government Cool, that's the first time "the highest level" comes up. You started with "The Nazi regime". Do you think "The Nazi regime" is Hitler and his direct reports? How many is that? About 20 people? > there's plenty for the Holodomor too Then you list 1 single piece of "evidence" (one list of items that would implicate regime provided ALL of them are true). And it is not really an evidence, because clause "b) they knew that their policies would make things worse" is your own personal guess. I can't see how you could logically arrive that Stalin foresaw that that policy will make things worse. What evidence do you have for that claim? I kinda suspect that your evidence for it looks likes this: (a && b && c && d) => Holodomor was intentional. Holodomor was intentional. Therefore b must be true Which is problematic on two accounts: the 2nd statement is the one being debated on the first place (e.g. circular evidence), and 2 - you can't reverse implication in the first statement.