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Psychology is supposedly that science, although it is still a bit wooly here and there. That's how chemistry was in its infancy as well. There may also be real

Psychology is supposedly that science, although it is still a bit wooly here and there. That's how chemistry was in its infancy as well. There may also be real phenomena that those working in that field don't yet consider to be valid for investigation as well. Another point to make is that scientists need to take proper safety precautions, lest they end up like Marie Curie, who was poisoned by what she was studying.

moralestapia 2y ago
No, it's not psychology. These are metaphysical phenomena.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  The phenomena I was talking about, and that indeed would fall into the category of psychology, are the ones that are purely physical - poorly understood bio-psycho-social phenomena like meditation as a way to control your own mind and body (in biologically limited ways, such as being able to lower your pulse slightly, not fantasies like mending broken bones with the power of will), or the ability to influence others by talking to them. The other parts of "magic", such as the ability to view things that someone else is viewing without emitting or receiving electromagnetic waves are clearly fantasies, not in the purview of any science.
  - nuc1e0n 2y ago
    Plaster casts for broken limbs are produced by an application of will also. And those plaster casts help bones to heal more rapidly.
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      No, they are a product of labor. Sure, labor is a product of will, but the intermediate step is crucial. Many mages claim that they can fix ailments, quickly, by simply willing them to mend and maybe laying their hands, almost like in a video game.
      - nuc1e0n 2y ago
        Yeah, that ain't real. For something to work there's gotta be some mechanism by which it does. Bonesetting is a real thing, but second hand stories can get distorted by the ignorant. Usually towards being more dramatic. Although relocating a dislocated shoulder is pretty immediate.
tsimionescu 2y ago
Psychology is trying to be that science, but it's hard to call it that at this point. It's more like a craft at this point, trying to masquerade as a science. But hopefully in time it will develop into a true study of this type of mental phenomenon. And just to be clear, I'm strictly referring to things like meditation as a way to change your own mindset, not any of the silly concepts that assume the mind is somehow able to move atoms around without emitting radiation.
- nuc1e0n 2y ago
  The human mind is able to move atoms around. Chiefly by means of human hands.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    Sure, but that still emits radiation (in the form of chemical or electrical signals in the nervous system down to the muscles, and also in the form of the massive amount of particles constituting your hand).
    - nuc1e0n 2y ago
      Who told you that it wouldn't? And philosophically speaking where do you draw the line between 'you' and the rest of the world? Do you think the neurons in your head are 'you' and the neurons in your arm are just inanimate in some way? That seems a rather arbitrary distinction to me.
      - tsimionescu 2y ago
        I specifically said "silly concepts that assume the mind could move matter around without emitting radiation". You responded that the mind can move objects, mostly with the use of hands, and I pointed out that the use of hands is a form of radiation, so that was perfectly in line with my original line. As to the other question, it's irrelevant to this discussion (but no, I don't draw such a distinction, except insofar as recognizing that the neurons in the arm will not normally fire to create a movement in the arm without first receiving a signal from neurons in the spine or brain, in healthy people). Ultimately my point is that the only way a person can influence the broader world is by emitting radiation in measurable ways, and the only way they can find out about the broader world is by receiving radiation. So a person in an EM shielded, inertially dampened, sound proofed room with no one to talk to can't view the city of Jerusalem from above, regardless of how hard they concentrate or believe they can.

moralestapia 2y ago

No, it's not psychology. These are metaphysical phenomena.

tsimionescu 2y ago
The phenomena I was talking about, and that indeed would fall into the category of psychology, are the ones that are purely physical - poorly understood bio-psycho-social phenomena like meditation as a way to control your own mind and body (in biologically limited ways, such as being able to lower your pulse slightly, not fantasies like mending broken bones with the power of will), or the ability to influence others by talking to them. The other parts of "magic", such as the ability to view things that someone else is viewing without emitting or receiving electromagnetic waves are clearly fantasies, not in the purview of any science.
- nuc1e0n 2y ago
  Plaster casts for broken limbs are produced by an application of will also. And those plaster casts help bones to heal more rapidly.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    No, they are a product of labor. Sure, labor is a product of will, but the intermediate step is crucial. Many mages claim that they can fix ailments, quickly, by simply willing them to mend and maybe laying their hands, almost like in a video game.
    - nuc1e0n 2y ago
      Yeah, that ain't real. For something to work there's gotta be some mechanism by which it does. Bonesetting is a real thing, but second hand stories can get distorted by the ignorant. Usually towards being more dramatic. Although relocating a dislocated shoulder is pretty immediate.

tsimionescu 2y ago

Psychology is trying to be that science, but it's hard to call it that at this point. It's more like a craft at this point, trying to masquerade as a science. But hopefully in time it will develop into a true study of this type of mental phenomenon. And just to be clear, I'm strictly referring to things like meditation as a way to change your own mindset, not any of the silly concepts that assume the mind is somehow able to move atoms around without emitting radiation.

nuc1e0n 2y ago
The human mind is able to move atoms around. Chiefly by means of human hands.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Sure, but that still emits radiation (in the form of chemical or electrical signals in the nervous system down to the muscles, and also in the form of the massive amount of particles constituting your hand).
  - nuc1e0n 2y ago
    Who told you that it wouldn't? And philosophically speaking where do you draw the line between 'you' and the rest of the world? Do you think the neurons in your head are 'you' and the neurons in your arm are just inanimate in some way? That seems a rather arbitrary distinction to me.
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      I specifically said "silly concepts that assume the mind could move matter around without emitting radiation". You responded that the mind can move objects, mostly with the use of hands, and I pointed out that the use of hands is a form of radiation, so that was perfectly in line with my original line. As to the other question, it's irrelevant to this discussion (but no, I don't draw such a distinction, except insofar as recognizing that the neurons in the arm will not normally fire to create a movement in the arm without first receiving a signal from neurons in the spine or brain, in healthy people). Ultimately my point is that the only way a person can influence the broader world is by emitting radiation in measurable ways, and the only way they can find out about the broader world is by receiving radiation. So a person in an EM shielded, inertially dampened, sound proofed room with no one to talk to can't view the city of Jerusalem from above, regardless of how hard they concentrate or believe they can.