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Neo-Nazis present exactly the same case. No direct evidence exists to prove that the highest level of the German government (specifically, Hitler) ordered the e

by mopsi 2y ago

Neo-Nazis present exactly the same case. No direct evidence exists to prove that the highest level of the German government (specifically, Hitler) ordered the extermination of Jews or was even aware of it. They claim there was no intent to exterminate or enslave anyone, arguing that things simply got out of hand as "swift decisions" had to be made to prioritize the war effort over the lives of civilians. They assert that the crimes committed across occupied Europe were the result of unfortunate initiatives by local administrators who failed to supply the civilian population and prison camps with food and other necessities. For this, they place blame on Allied strategic bombing, which severely hampered German logistics. Their main conclusion is that no master plan existed for extermination and enslavement - much like how communists argue that there was no overarching plan when the Soviets starved several million people to death during the Holodomor, and committed many other crimes against humanity. It's uncanny how similar the excuses are.

lostmsu 2y ago
Me and I, and Nazis, and USSR could claim anything. But we are discussing factual events and hopefully trying to come to objective conclusions. There's multiple evidence that Nazis goals were extermination and enslavement, but I am not aware of any that would indicate USSR wanted people in Ukrainian SSR to die from starvation.
- mopsi 2y ago
  There is not a single piece of written evidence that Hitler ever ordered the Holocaust. The intent and responsibility have been derived from his speeches, the actions of his subordinates, and other indirect evidence. The USSR's intent to exterminate Ukrainians (and many other ethnicities) can be proven to the same standard; and has been proven; and this has led to worldwide condemnation, from the European Parliament representing 450 million people in 27 countries, to even Ecuador and Australia. The European Parliament, ... Recognises the Holodomor, the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine caused by a deliberate policy of the Soviet regime, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people, as it was committed with the intent to destroy a group of people by deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction; https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559...
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    Well no, it is not the same at all. There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews, and enslavement of untermensch, but AFAIK no such evidence is present for deliberate Holodomor. Some countries of EU and the parliament recognizing something is not evidence of any kind. In fact it paints EU parliament in bad colors to me because wow, coincidentally they do it in 2022 with many individual countries still objecting and US and UK simply refusing to twist the facts into that conclusion just yet.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      > There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        You are arguing something that I'm not. There are testimonies of witnesses that claim murder of Jews was planned and directed at e.g. Wannsee. Nothing like that exists for Holodomor.
        mopsi 2y ago
        As I said, there is no direct evidence of any kind that the highest level of the German government (in Hitler's person) had anything to do with the Holocaust, so why would you expect to find anything where the USSR's leaders explicitly stated their intentions? As for indirect evidence, there's plenty for the Holodomor too: a) Stalin and other top-ranking officials were aware of the food shortages in Ukraine, b) they knew that their policies were going to make things worse, c) they still adopted those policies, and d) they expressed satisfaction with the outcome. They deliberately allowed millions of people to die of starvation to suppress Ukrainian national identity and punish them for perceived disloyalty. If someone came to your city, confiscated all food, harshly punished any attempts to store even a minimal amount for basic survival, caused a horrific starvation that killed many people, drove survivors to such insanity that mothers ate the flesh off their living children, and still blocked all foreign aid and prevented people from leaving, then how would you call it if not deliberate mass murder?

by mopsi 2y ago

lostmsu 2y ago

Me and I, and Nazis, and USSR could claim anything. But we are discussing factual events and hopefully trying to come to objective conclusions. There's multiple evidence that Nazis goals were extermination and enslavement, but I am not aware of any that would indicate USSR wanted people in Ukrainian SSR to die from starvation.

mopsi 2y ago
There is not a single piece of written evidence that Hitler ever ordered the Holocaust. The intent and responsibility have been derived from his speeches, the actions of his subordinates, and other indirect evidence. The USSR's intent to exterminate Ukrainians (and many other ethnicities) can be proven to the same standard; and has been proven; and this has led to worldwide condemnation, from the European Parliament representing 450 million people in 27 countries, to even Ecuador and Australia. The European Parliament, ... Recognises the Holodomor, the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine caused by a deliberate policy of the Soviet regime, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people, as it was committed with the intent to destroy a group of people by deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction; https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559...
- lostmsu 2y ago
  Well no, it is not the same at all. There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews, and enslavement of untermensch, but AFAIK no such evidence is present for deliberate Holodomor. Some countries of EU and the parliament recognizing something is not evidence of any kind. In fact it paints EU parliament in bad colors to me because wow, coincidentally they do it in 2022 with many individual countries still objecting and US and UK simply refusing to twist the facts into that conclusion just yet.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    > There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      You are arguing something that I'm not. There are testimonies of witnesses that claim murder of Jews was planned and directed at e.g. Wannsee. Nothing like that exists for Holodomor.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        As I said, there is no direct evidence of any kind that the highest level of the German government (in Hitler's person) had anything to do with the Holocaust, so why would you expect to find anything where the USSR's leaders explicitly stated their intentions? As for indirect evidence, there's plenty for the Holodomor too: a) Stalin and other top-ranking officials were aware of the food shortages in Ukraine, b) they knew that their policies were going to make things worse, c) they still adopted those policies, and d) they expressed satisfaction with the outcome. They deliberately allowed millions of people to die of starvation to suppress Ukrainian national identity and punish them for perceived disloyalty. If someone came to your city, confiscated all food, harshly punished any attempts to store even a minimal amount for basic survival, caused a horrific starvation that killed many people, drove survivors to such insanity that mothers ate the flesh off their living children, and still blocked all foreign aid and prevented people from leaving, then how would you call it if not deliberate mass murder?