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Prompt: In the Netherlands, in terms of drinks, is there a particular spirit that represents the country? > Yes, in the Netherlands, jenever (also known as gen

by jorvi 2y ago

Prompt: In the Netherlands, in terms of drinks, is there a particular spirit that represents the country? > Yes, in the Netherlands, jenever (also known as genever) is the traditional spirit that represents the country. Jenever is a type of Dutch gin that has a distinctive flavor, often made from malt wine and flavored with juniper berries. It has a long history in the Netherlands, dating back to the 16th century, and is considered the precursor to modern gin. > Jenever comes in two main types: oude (old) jenever, which has a richer, maltier flavor and is often aged in wooden casks, and jonge (young) jenever, which is lighter and has a more neutral taste. Both types can be enjoyed straight or used in cocktails. > In addition to jenever, the Netherlands is also known for its liqueurs, such as advocaat, a rich and creamy drink made from eggs, sugar, and brandy, often enjoyed as a dessert or in cocktails. However, jenever remains the most iconic spirit associated with Dutch culture. This is completely wrong. Jenever certainly is very Dutch, but no one would say it is iconic as the Dutch spirit. For example, if you asked up north in Friesland, they would say Berenburg. This happens literally every time. Someone always says "ChatGPT can do this!", but then within one or two prompts, its gets it wrong.

ludwik 2y ago
But what does this have to do with reasoning? Yes, LLMs are not knowledge bases, and seeing people treat them as such absolutely terrifies me. However, I don’t see how the fact that LLMs often hallucinate “facts” is relevant to a discussion about their reasoning capabilities.
- zahlman 2y ago
  "Hallucinating a fact" that isn't in the training set and is also illogical, is exactly what a failure to reason correctly looks like.
  - ludwik 2y ago
    Reasoning involves making accurate inferences based on the information provided in the current context, rather than recalling arbitrary facts from the training data.
    - zahlman 2y ago
      Yes, that's what I said. The whole point of hallucinations is that they aren't "arbitrary facts recalled from the training data". They represent attempts to synthesize (i.e., infer) new facts. But because the inferences are not accurate, and because the synthesis process is not sound, the attempt cannot be called reasoning. It is equally possible to "reason" about things you already know, as about things you've just been told. In fact, the capacity to speculatively, without prompting attempt such reasoning is a big part of cognition.
elif 2y ago
'Berenberg is made by adding herbs to jenever' From your comment it would seem that you are disputing jenever's popularity by saying jenever is more popular... Perhaps it was a good faith mistake? If so, that would imply that the AI knows more about jenever than you?
- jorvi 2y ago
  I am rather saying that there is no one national drink for The Netherlands, like a Frenchman would say wine, a German/Belgian would say beer, and a Scotsman would say whisky. Note that I prompted "In the Netherlands, in terms of drinks, is there a particular spirit that represents the country?" I didn't ask which spirit is consumed the most. For example, France has been trending towards beer more and more, and within a few decades they might be consuming more beer than wine. But even then, the French wouldn't slowly start to say beer represents France. Furthermore, "just adding some herbs" does a large disservice to the flavor change of Berenburg. Jenever (aka jonge/unaged jenever) is straight-up vile. I've heard it described by expats as "having the worst elements of both cheap gin and cheap whisky". Berenburg in comparison is spicy and vanilla-y and actually debatebly enjoyable. Aged/oude jenever is much closer to Berenburg (or Berenburg to aged jenever), also with hints of vanilla and spices. But, virtually no one except for dusty old men orders aged jenever. The kind ordered by far the most is jonge jenever, and then its only in a sense of "haha lets drink this terrible thing" or "let's get shitfaced quick". If o1 supposedly "oneshots every question", it should have been aware of these nuances instead of just confidently assigning jenever as 'the' spirit of the Dutch.
  - zuminator 2y ago
    The question of whether there is a national drink seems to me to be entirely different than the question you asked the LLM "Prompt: In the Netherlands, in terms of drinks, is there a particular spirit that represents the country?" The question in the prompt comes off to me as a sort of qualitative determination rather than asking about pure factual information (is there an officially designated spirit). As such I don't think it can necessarily be right or wrong. Anyway, I'm not sure what you'd expect. In terms of acquisition of knowledge, LLMs fundamentally rely on a written corpus. Their knowledge of information that is passed through casual spoken conversation is limited. Sure, as human beings, we rely a great deal on the latter. But for an LLM to lack access to that information means that it's going to miss out on cultural nuances that are not widely expressed in writing. Much in the same way that a human adult can live in a foreign country for decades, speaking their adopted language quite fluently, but if they don't have kids of their own, they might be quite ignorant of that country's nursery rhymes and children's games, simply because they were never part of their acquired vocabulary and experience.
ipaddr 2y ago
So you believe they are incorrect because regionally some area would select something different because it represented that area. But your question asked nationally.. is there a better answer than the one they gave? Were you expecting a no?
- zahlman 2y ago
  The point is that there is no correct national answer, because the locals don't see it as a matter of national identity. What's expected is an ability to identify trick questions, i.e., to recognize fundamental problems in the phrasing of a question rather than trying to provide a "helpful" answer at all costs. This corresponds to one of the many reasons LLM output is banned on Stack Overflow.
- jorvi 2y ago
  See my more detailed upthread response here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42569937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42569937 But, like Zahlman points out, its a trick question, and instead of admitting it doesn't know or even prepending "I don't know for sure, but:", it just burps up its best-effort answer. There is no one spirit that represents The Netherlands. If a LLM is so good it "oneshots any question", it should realize it doesn't have a unanimous answer and tell me.
kevhito 2y ago
"This is completely wrong." Is it completely wrong? Or maybe "somewhat" wrong? Maybe just lacking nuance? I know nothing about the answer to this question, so this is an honest question. Using just a plain old search engine, for things like "national drink of the netherlands" and simlar queries, I am directed to Wikipedia's Jenever page as the top hit, and Wikipedia's list of national drinks lists Jenever and Heineken as the entries for the Netherlands. Search engines also give page after page of travel guides and blog posts, most of which list Jenever at or near the top of of their listings. One travel guide calls it "the most famous Dutch spirit and most famous Amsterdam liquor, Jenever, also spelled Genever or simply Dutch gin."

by jorvi 2y ago

ludwik 2y ago

But what does this have to do with reasoning? Yes, LLMs are not knowledge bases, and seeing people treat them as such absolutely terrifies me. However, I don’t see how the fact that LLMs often hallucinate “facts” is relevant to a discussion about their reasoning capabilities.

zahlman 2y ago
"Hallucinating a fact" that isn't in the training set and is also illogical, is exactly what a failure to reason correctly looks like.
- ludwik 2y ago
  Reasoning involves making accurate inferences based on the information provided in the current context, rather than recalling arbitrary facts from the training data.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    Yes, that's what I said. The whole point of hallucinations is that they aren't "arbitrary facts recalled from the training data". They represent attempts to synthesize (i.e., infer) new facts. But because the inferences are not accurate, and because the synthesis process is not sound, the attempt cannot be called reasoning. It is equally possible to "reason" about things you already know, as about things you've just been told. In fact, the capacity to speculatively, without prompting attempt such reasoning is a big part of cognition.

elif 2y ago

'Berenberg is made by adding herbs to jenever' From your comment it would seem that you are disputing jenever's popularity by saying jenever is more popular... Perhaps it was a good faith mistake? If so, that would imply that the AI knows more about jenever than you?

jorvi 2y ago
I am rather saying that there is no one national drink for The Netherlands, like a Frenchman would say wine, a German/Belgian would say beer, and a Scotsman would say whisky. Note that I prompted "In the Netherlands, in terms of drinks, is there a particular spirit that represents the country?" I didn't ask which spirit is consumed the most. For example, France has been trending towards beer more and more, and within a few decades they might be consuming more beer than wine. But even then, the French wouldn't slowly start to say beer represents France. Furthermore, "just adding some herbs" does a large disservice to the flavor change of Berenburg. Jenever (aka jonge/unaged jenever) is straight-up vile. I've heard it described by expats as "having the worst elements of both cheap gin and cheap whisky". Berenburg in comparison is spicy and vanilla-y and actually debatebly enjoyable. Aged/oude jenever is much closer to Berenburg (or Berenburg to aged jenever), also with hints of vanilla and spices. But, virtually no one except for dusty old men orders aged jenever. The kind ordered by far the most is jonge jenever, and then its only in a sense of "haha lets drink this terrible thing" or "let's get shitfaced quick". If o1 supposedly "oneshots every question", it should have been aware of these nuances instead of just confidently assigning jenever as 'the' spirit of the Dutch.
- zuminator 2y ago
  The question of whether there is a national drink seems to me to be entirely different than the question you asked the LLM "Prompt: In the Netherlands, in terms of drinks, is there a particular spirit that represents the country?" The question in the prompt comes off to me as a sort of qualitative determination rather than asking about pure factual information (is there an officially designated spirit). As such I don't think it can necessarily be right or wrong. Anyway, I'm not sure what you'd expect. In terms of acquisition of knowledge, LLMs fundamentally rely on a written corpus. Their knowledge of information that is passed through casual spoken conversation is limited. Sure, as human beings, we rely a great deal on the latter. But for an LLM to lack access to that information means that it's going to miss out on cultural nuances that are not widely expressed in writing. Much in the same way that a human adult can live in a foreign country for decades, speaking their adopted language quite fluently, but if they don't have kids of their own, they might be quite ignorant of that country's nursery rhymes and children's games, simply because they were never part of their acquired vocabulary and experience.

ipaddr 2y ago

So you believe they are incorrect because regionally some area would select something different because it represented that area. But your question asked nationally.. is there a better answer than the one they gave? Were you expecting a no?

zahlman 2y ago
The point is that there is no correct national answer, because the locals don't see it as a matter of national identity. What's expected is an ability to identify trick questions, i.e., to recognize fundamental problems in the phrasing of a question rather than trying to provide a "helpful" answer at all costs. This corresponds to one of the many reasons LLM output is banned on Stack Overflow.
jorvi 2y ago
See my more detailed upthread response here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42569937 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42569937 But, like Zahlman points out, its a trick question, and instead of admitting it doesn't know or even prepending "I don't know for sure, but:", it just burps up its best-effort answer. There is no one spirit that represents The Netherlands. If a LLM is so good it "oneshots any question", it should realize it doesn't have a unanimous answer and tell me.

kevhito 2y ago

"This is completely wrong." Is it completely wrong? Or maybe "somewhat" wrong? Maybe just lacking nuance? I know nothing about the answer to this question, so this is an honest question. Using just a plain old search engine, for things like "national drink of the netherlands" and simlar queries, I am directed to Wikipedia's Jenever page as the top hit, and Wikipedia's list of national drinks lists Jenever and Heineken as the entries for the Netherlands. Search engines also give page after page of travel guides and blog posts, most of which list Jenever at or near the top of of their listings. One travel guide calls it "the most famous Dutch spirit and most famous Amsterdam liquor, Jenever, also spelled Genever or simply Dutch gin."