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How would you feel about similar excuses made for Nazi atrocities? The Nazi regime was also very immature, barely five years old by the time of Austrian anschlu

by mopsi 2y ago

How would you feel about similar excuses made for Nazi atrocities? The Nazi regime was also very immature, barely five years old by the time of Austrian anschluss, and invented many policies on the go, and was at war for most of its existence. Neo-Nazis even use exactly the same phrasing of "swift decisions" and "priorities" to reduce human suffering into abstract concepts and handwave it away.

lostmsu 2y ago
I'm sure there are situations where some of Nazi atrocities could be justified with a similar logic, but I don't think that applies to the goals of exterminating Jews or enslaving nearby nations, the two things Nazis are mostly hated for.
- mopsi 2y ago
  Neo-Nazis present exactly the same case. No direct evidence exists to prove that the highest level of the German government (specifically, Hitler) ordered the extermination of Jews or was even aware of it. They claim there was no intent to exterminate or enslave anyone, arguing that things simply got out of hand as "swift decisions" had to be made to prioritize the war effort over the lives of civilians. They assert that the crimes committed across occupied Europe were the result of unfortunate initiatives by local administrators who failed to supply the civilian population and prison camps with food and other necessities. For this, they place blame on Allied strategic bombing, which severely hampered German logistics. Their main conclusion is that no master plan existed for extermination and enslavement - much like how communists argue that there was no overarching plan when the Soviets starved several million people to death during the Holodomor, and committed many other crimes against humanity. It's uncanny how similar the excuses are.
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    Me and I, and Nazis, and USSR could claim anything. But we are discussing factual events and hopefully trying to come to objective conclusions. There's multiple evidence that Nazis goals were extermination and enslavement, but I am not aware of any that would indicate USSR wanted people in Ukrainian SSR to die from starvation.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      There is not a single piece of written evidence that Hitler ever ordered the Holocaust. The intent and responsibility have been derived from his speeches, the actions of his subordinates, and other indirect evidence. The USSR's intent to exterminate Ukrainians (and many other ethnicities) can be proven to the same standard; and has been proven; and this has led to worldwide condemnation, from the European Parliament representing 450 million people in 27 countries, to even Ecuador and Australia. The European Parliament, ... Recognises the Holodomor, the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine caused by a deliberate policy of the Soviet regime, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people, as it was committed with the intent to destroy a group of people by deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction; https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559...
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        Well no, it is not the same at all. There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews, and enslavement of untermensch, but AFAIK no such evidence is present for deliberate Holodomor. Some countries of EU and the parliament recognizing something is not evidence of any kind. In fact it paints EU parliament in bad colors to me because wow, coincidentally they do it in 2022 with many individual countries still objecting and US and UK simply refusing to twist the facts into that conclusion just yet.
        mopsi 2y ago
        > There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.
        lostmsu 2y ago
        You are arguing something that I'm not. There are testimonies of witnesses that claim murder of Jews was planned and directed at e.g. Wannsee. Nothing like that exists for Holodomor.

by mopsi 2y ago

lostmsu 2y ago

I'm sure there are situations where some of Nazi atrocities could be justified with a similar logic, but I don't think that applies to the goals of exterminating Jews or enslaving nearby nations, the two things Nazis are mostly hated for.

mopsi 2y ago
Neo-Nazis present exactly the same case. No direct evidence exists to prove that the highest level of the German government (specifically, Hitler) ordered the extermination of Jews or was even aware of it. They claim there was no intent to exterminate or enslave anyone, arguing that things simply got out of hand as "swift decisions" had to be made to prioritize the war effort over the lives of civilians. They assert that the crimes committed across occupied Europe were the result of unfortunate initiatives by local administrators who failed to supply the civilian population and prison camps with food and other necessities. For this, they place blame on Allied strategic bombing, which severely hampered German logistics. Their main conclusion is that no master plan existed for extermination and enslavement - much like how communists argue that there was no overarching plan when the Soviets starved several million people to death during the Holodomor, and committed many other crimes against humanity. It's uncanny how similar the excuses are.
- lostmsu 2y ago
  Me and I, and Nazis, and USSR could claim anything. But we are discussing factual events and hopefully trying to come to objective conclusions. There's multiple evidence that Nazis goals were extermination and enslavement, but I am not aware of any that would indicate USSR wanted people in Ukrainian SSR to die from starvation.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    There is not a single piece of written evidence that Hitler ever ordered the Holocaust. The intent and responsibility have been derived from his speeches, the actions of his subordinates, and other indirect evidence. The USSR's intent to exterminate Ukrainians (and many other ethnicities) can be proven to the same standard; and has been proven; and this has led to worldwide condemnation, from the European Parliament representing 450 million people in 27 countries, to even Ecuador and Australia. The European Parliament, ... Recognises the Holodomor, the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine caused by a deliberate policy of the Soviet regime, as a genocide against the Ukrainian people, as it was committed with the intent to destroy a group of people by deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction; https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2022-0559...
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      Well no, it is not the same at all. There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews, and enslavement of untermensch, but AFAIK no such evidence is present for deliberate Holodomor. Some countries of EU and the parliament recognizing something is not evidence of any kind. In fact it paints EU parliament in bad colors to me because wow, coincidentally they do it in 2022 with many individual countries still objecting and US and UK simply refusing to twist the facts into that conclusion just yet.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        > There are multiple accounts as you say that confirm verbal orders for explicit extermination of Jews None. No direct record of any kind exists to prove that Hitler ordered the Holocaust.
        lostmsu 2y ago
        You are arguing something that I'm not. There are testimonies of witnesses that claim murder of Jews was planned and directed at e.g. Wannsee. Nothing like that exists for Holodomor.