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Disclaimer: commie. I read The Gulag Archipelago and did not find it to be as damning to the Gulag system as people seem to paint it, at least in historical co

Disclaimer: commie. I read The Gulag Archipelago and did not find it to be as damning to the Gulag system as people seem to paint it, at least in historical context. Forced prison labor was only officially abolished in Britain in 1948. Political prisoners in USSR were but a tiny part of Gulag prisoners. Considering USSR replaced literal monarchy, that is still a big improvement. In the turmoils between 1917 and 1945 it is no wonder a proper court system was not established and the country had what it deemed other priorities. Hindsight is 20/20 here. Solzhenitsin himself was booked for spreading information about Soviet atrocities, but severe penalties for spreading such information existed in many countries, including Britain. It is a rather typical (especially then) wartime law, that in Britain for instance went up to death sentence (probably not for that particular kind of violation). This all feels alien now, but it is not that much different from other major powers were doing at the time.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
You make a good point, as we should remember the many times the US and other countries imprisoned nonviolent political dissidents. However, I think when comparing the USSR, I think the magnitude and severity are distinct. Comparing them on a binary basis runs the risk of making no true Scotsman errors, and easy to do as google powered amateur historian.
- lostmsu 2y ago
  The point is not even in the relative sizes of the atrocities, but in the maturity of the involved systems, and priorities. Take toikas. They are a terrible and very corruptible court system for peace time, but in 30 years of USSR life by the time Solzhenitsin got arrested 10 were in either the civil war, or in the WW2, where swift decisions might have been of more importance than the rate of false positives. So I can see why they weren't replaced until later.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    How would you feel about similar excuses made for Nazi atrocities? The Nazi regime was also very immature, barely five years old by the time of Austrian anschluss, and invented many policies on the go, and was at war for most of its existence. Neo-Nazis even use exactly the same phrasing of "swift decisions" and "priorities" to reduce human suffering into abstract concepts and handwave it away.
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      I'm sure there are situations where some of Nazi atrocities could be justified with a similar logic, but I don't think that applies to the goals of exterminating Jews or enslaving nearby nations, the two things Nazis are mostly hated for.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        Neo-Nazis present exactly the same case. No direct evidence exists to prove that the highest level of the German government (specifically, Hitler) ordered the extermination of Jews or was even aware of it. They claim there was no intent to exterminate or enslave anyone, arguing that things simply got out of hand as "swift decisions" had to be made to prioritize the war effort over the lives of civilians. They assert that the crimes committed across occupied Europe were the result of unfortunate initiatives by local administrators who failed to supply the civilian population and prison camps with food and other necessities. For this, they place blame on Allied strategic bombing, which severely hampered German logistics. Their main conclusion is that no master plan existed for extermination and enslavement - much like how communists argue that there was no overarching plan when the Soviets starved several million people to death during the Holodomor, and committed many other crimes against humanity. It's uncanny how similar the excuses are.
        lostmsu 2y ago
        Me and I, and Nazis, and USSR could claim anything. But we are discussing factual events and hopefully trying to come to objective conclusions. There's multiple evidence that Nazis goals were extermination and enslavement, but I am not aware of any that would indicate USSR wanted people in Ukrainian SSR to die from starvation.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

You make a good point, as we should remember the many times the US and other countries imprisoned nonviolent political dissidents. However, I think when comparing the USSR, I think the magnitude and severity are distinct. Comparing them on a binary basis runs the risk of making no true Scotsman errors, and easy to do as google powered amateur historian.

lostmsu 2y ago
The point is not even in the relative sizes of the atrocities, but in the maturity of the involved systems, and priorities. Take toikas. They are a terrible and very corruptible court system for peace time, but in 30 years of USSR life by the time Solzhenitsin got arrested 10 were in either the civil war, or in the WW2, where swift decisions might have been of more importance than the rate of false positives. So I can see why they weren't replaced until later.
- mopsi 2y ago
  How would you feel about similar excuses made for Nazi atrocities? The Nazi regime was also very immature, barely five years old by the time of Austrian anschluss, and invented many policies on the go, and was at war for most of its existence. Neo-Nazis even use exactly the same phrasing of "swift decisions" and "priorities" to reduce human suffering into abstract concepts and handwave it away.
  - lostmsu 2y ago
    I'm sure there are situations where some of Nazi atrocities could be justified with a similar logic, but I don't think that applies to the goals of exterminating Jews or enslaving nearby nations, the two things Nazis are mostly hated for.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Neo-Nazis present exactly the same case. No direct evidence exists to prove that the highest level of the German government (specifically, Hitler) ordered the extermination of Jews or was even aware of it. They claim there was no intent to exterminate or enslave anyone, arguing that things simply got out of hand as "swift decisions" had to be made to prioritize the war effort over the lives of civilians. They assert that the crimes committed across occupied Europe were the result of unfortunate initiatives by local administrators who failed to supply the civilian population and prison camps with food and other necessities. For this, they place blame on Allied strategic bombing, which severely hampered German logistics. Their main conclusion is that no master plan existed for extermination and enslavement - much like how communists argue that there was no overarching plan when the Soviets starved several million people to death during the Holodomor, and committed many other crimes against humanity. It's uncanny how similar the excuses are.
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        Me and I, and Nazis, and USSR could claim anything. But we are discussing factual events and hopefully trying to come to objective conclusions. There's multiple evidence that Nazis goals were extermination and enslavement, but I am not aware of any that would indicate USSR wanted people in Ukrainian SSR to die from starvation.