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by _zagj 2y ago

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ajuc 2y ago
On reddit, hn, and internet in general the conservatives support modern totalitarian states like China, Russia or Iran much more often than progressives. Despite very real and very recent atrocities.
ceejayoz 2y ago
I mean, punch Nazis and Stalinists.
- _zagj 2y ago
  How about acting like a civilized person and not responding (or encouraging others to respond) to speech with violence?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Civilization (and the social contract that sustains it) requires defense at times. D-Day serves as an example; we did substantially more than punching.
    - vacuity 2y ago
      Indeed, although I think people "on the right side of history" (whoever they may be, fill in the blank yourself) would (could) do a bit better to ensure they use violence as a last resort. Never too late is crucial, but never too early is still important.
    - _zagj 2y ago
      D-Day was done in response to violence (starting with the invasion Poland in 1939), not speech. Protection of political speech is the bedrock of American civilization. It's funny, if you want to find the truly most loathsome of your fellow citizens, just browse your state's public sex offender registry. How many "punch nazi" types would endorse assaulting these people? Probably none, not even for the ones politically organizing and advocating for their "cause" (the "MAPS" types)--which is the correct attitude for a civilized society.
      - krapp 2y ago
        It's weird that you think there is a significant number of people who would punch a nazi or a tankie but not also punch a pedophile. I've read a lot of pro fascist speech arguments on HN, but "we should treat them with the dignity and respect we afford child-fuckers" is definitely a new one on me.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        D-Day was necessary because Nazi storm troopers in the early 1930s weren’t opposed enough. Pedophiles generally aren’t advocating for an overthrow of the system and putting non-pedophiles in death camps. The ones on the registry have already been caught and punished, too. We have no such public registry of Nazis.
        _zagj 2y ago
        > D-Day was necessary because Nazi storm troopers in the early 1930s weren’t opposed enough. And Stalin's Great Terror of 1936-37 occurred because Communists weren't opposed enough. Yet conservatives don't go around calling for "Communists" (let alone as broadly constituted as the left casts their opponents as "nazis") to be assaulted, because they understand speech != violence. > Pedophiles generally aren’t advocating It's not hard to find pedophiles trying to rebrand themselves (e.g., "MAPS") and trying to advocate for decriminalization or reform. > The ones on the registry have already been caught and punished, too. We have no such public registry of Nazis. Probably because they haven't broken any laws--you know, the things a civilized society is supposed to use to punish its transgressors.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Yet conservatives don't go around calling for "Communists" (let alone as broadly constituted as the left casts their opponents as "nazis") to be assaulted, because they understand speech != violence. This is a very hard assertion to support. A current Republican Congresswoman called for Nancy Pelosi's execution; https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-democrats-violence/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/politics/marjorie-taylor-gree.... The former and future Republican president called for demonstrators to be shot, hecklers at his rallies to be beaten up, said "Any guy that can do a body slam, he is my type!" when Montana's governor assaulted a reporter... A decent chunk of conservatives assaulted Congress when they didn't like the election results, and a lot more supported the action. > It's not hard to find pedophiles trying to rebrand themselves (e.g., "MAPS") and trying to advocate for decriminalization or reform. And if they make any significant inroads politically I'll happily add them to the punching list.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I always think the it interesting how the paradox of tolerance gets interpreted as a an instruction and endorsement of intolerance, opposed to an actual paradox. It also takes as an assumption that intolerant ideas outcompete tolerant ones, opposed to reach some equilibrium solution or the opposite.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  The simple interpretation is “be tolerant, but not to a fault”. Same idea as the Constitution not being a suicide pact, or being allowed to break kosher rules to save a life.

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by _zagj 2y ago

[flagged]

ajuc 2y ago

On reddit, hn, and internet in general the conservatives support modern totalitarian states like China, Russia or Iran much more often than progressives. Despite very real and very recent atrocities.

ceejayoz 2y ago

I mean, punch Nazis and Stalinists.

_zagj 2y ago
How about acting like a civilized person and not responding (or encouraging others to respond) to speech with violence?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Civilization (and the social contract that sustains it) requires defense at times. D-Day serves as an example; we did substantially more than punching.
  - vacuity 2y ago
    Indeed, although I think people "on the right side of history" (whoever they may be, fill in the blank yourself) would (could) do a bit better to ensure they use violence as a last resort. Never too late is crucial, but never too early is still important.
  - _zagj 2y ago
    D-Day was done in response to violence (starting with the invasion Poland in 1939), not speech. Protection of political speech is the bedrock of American civilization. It's funny, if you want to find the truly most loathsome of your fellow citizens, just browse your state's public sex offender registry. How many "punch nazi" types would endorse assaulting these people? Probably none, not even for the ones politically organizing and advocating for their "cause" (the "MAPS" types)--which is the correct attitude for a civilized society.
    - krapp 2y ago
      It's weird that you think there is a significant number of people who would punch a nazi or a tankie but not also punch a pedophile. I've read a lot of pro fascist speech arguments on HN, but "we should treat them with the dignity and respect we afford child-fuckers" is definitely a new one on me.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      D-Day was necessary because Nazi storm troopers in the early 1930s weren’t opposed enough. Pedophiles generally aren’t advocating for an overthrow of the system and putting non-pedophiles in death camps. The ones on the registry have already been caught and punished, too. We have no such public registry of Nazis.
      - _zagj 2y ago
        > D-Day was necessary because Nazi storm troopers in the early 1930s weren’t opposed enough. And Stalin's Great Terror of 1936-37 occurred because Communists weren't opposed enough. Yet conservatives don't go around calling for "Communists" (let alone as broadly constituted as the left casts their opponents as "nazis") to be assaulted, because they understand speech != violence. > Pedophiles generally aren’t advocating It's not hard to find pedophiles trying to rebrand themselves (e.g., "MAPS") and trying to advocate for decriminalization or reform. > The ones on the registry have already been caught and punished, too. We have no such public registry of Nazis. Probably because they haven't broken any laws--you know, the things a civilized society is supposed to use to punish its transgressors.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Yet conservatives don't go around calling for "Communists" (let alone as broadly constituted as the left casts their opponents as "nazis") to be assaulted, because they understand speech != violence. This is a very hard assertion to support. A current Republican Congresswoman called for Nancy Pelosi's execution; https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-democrats-violence/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/politics/marjorie-taylor-gree.... The former and future Republican president called for demonstrators to be shot, hecklers at his rallies to be beaten up, said "Any guy that can do a body slam, he is my type!" when Montana's governor assaulted a reporter... A decent chunk of conservatives assaulted Congress when they didn't like the election results, and a lot more supported the action. > It's not hard to find pedophiles trying to rebrand themselves (e.g., "MAPS") and trying to advocate for decriminalization or reform. And if they make any significant inroads politically I'll happily add them to the punching list.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

I always think the it interesting how the paradox of tolerance gets interpreted as a an instruction and endorsement of intolerance, opposed to an actual paradox. It also takes as an assumption that intolerant ideas outcompete tolerant ones, opposed to reach some equilibrium solution or the opposite.

ceejayoz 2y ago
The simple interpretation is “be tolerant, but not to a fault”. Same idea as the Constitution not being a suicide pact, or being allowed to break kosher rules to save a life.