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This was a pleasant surprise and a pleasant read. Its message reminds me of the words of Shunryu Suzuki: > As to progress -- we don’t know how much progress we

This was a pleasant surprise and a pleasant read. Its message reminds me of the words of Shunryu Suzuki: > As to progress -- we don’t know how much progress we made, actually, but if you practice it you will realize -- some day you will realize that our progress is not -- it is not possible to make rapid, extraordinary progress. Even though you try very hard, you cannot actually make progress. The progress you make is always little by little. It is like -- to go through fog. You don’t know when you get wet, but if you just walk through fog you will be wet, little by little, even though you don’t know -- it is not like a shower. > When you go out when it is showering you will feel, ‘Oh, that’s terrible!”. It is not so bad but when you get wet by fog it is very difficult to dry yourself. This is how we make progress. So actually there is not need to worry about your progress. Just to do it is the way. It is, maybe, like to study language. Just repeating, you will master it. You cannot do it all of a sudden. This is how we practice, especially Soto way, is to do it little by little. To make progress little by little. Or we do not even mind, we do not expect to make progress, just to do it is our way. The point is to do it with sincerity in each moment. That is the point. There should not be Nirvana besides our practice. Source: https://www.shunryusuzuki.com/detail1?ID=80 https://www.shunryusuzuki.com/detail1?ID=80

notnaut 2y ago
Practice now, realize later, feels deeply dualistic to me.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  He’s saying practise is realisation, which is a concept developed by Dogen, the founder of Soto Zen
- marmaduke 2y ago
  that’s not what the story says. in any case, the point is to explain, in terms of dualistic if-then logic, that the if (you practice now) and then (you will wake up) are a single non-dual thing. but to communicate in in terms which make sense to the dual, if-then mind, one needs to use dualistic language.
- plasticchris 2y ago
  I imagine he would say to practice is to realize and to realize is to practice.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Isn't it just saying, a gain realized from compound interest over long-enough time is crazy yet short term gains is practically zero, yet total gain is anything but zero, and also there really isn't a magical zero effort quick and easy jackpot skill gain IRL
  - gsf_emergency 2y ago
    It isn't. Because when they put it much more sensuous & yet concrete terms, than the one of numbers & cents, the reader's mind might be primed to apply the idea to more general problems if & whenever they do arise, such as the problem of finding the right problem to solve.
velcrovan 2y ago
My favorite imagery of this idea comes from the last two stanzas of a poem: For while the tired waves, vainly breaking Seem here no painful inch to gain, Far back through creeks and inlets making, Comes silent, flooding in, the main. And not by eastern windows only, When daylight comes, comes in the light, In front the sun climbs slow, how slowly, But westward, look, the land is bright. — Arthur Hugh Clough https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43959/say-not-the-struggle-nought-availeth https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43959/say-not-the-str...
- tylerchr 2y ago
  You’ve just introduced me to a good poem. Thanks!
ratmeadow 2y ago
I can't help but feel like our modern society has sadly become the opposite of what this quote is talking about. Rather than slow and accepting, we're all about doing things fast and efficiently and betterment at all costs. The growth mindset, get up and grind, etc etc. Can't you practice faster? Learn faster? Put in more time? Even the most a human can reasonably do is never enough nowadays. High achievement is the new table stakes. IMO it's time for our society to take a hike and allow us to return to the spirit of the quote you've shared.
- brewtide 2y ago
  I'm fortunate enough to live in kinda nowhere land considering, so this is from the perspective of nowhere land (people with space and nature etc). I was hoping that the large COVID response in this country at the start of it all would finally get people to breathe, slow, and all that you mention. For a while , around my location, you could see life almost returning to a more connected to life, life. When things settled down, nothing much seemed to stick. The rat race restarted the grid is good to go, and the pace ever more frantic. People can, will, do, and should do whatever it is that makes them live their fulfilled life, 100%. I just hope they do it for themselves, not for others. Would be a shame.
LeftHandPath 2y ago
Wow. The fog example is fantastic. ...Reminds me of how I ruined my old wallet, hiking thirty miles on a foggy day in Algonquin Provincial Park.
atulatul 2y ago
I did not post this earlier because what the post says and what I am going quote are not exactly same. Time on Progress-craft/ Problem Solving. But maybe at some level of abstraction, the idea is same. Quoting from 'The Road Less Traveled' by M. Soctt Peck.[0] Section on Problem-Solving and Time: > At the age of thirty-seven I learned how to fix things. Prior to that time almost all my attempts to make minor plumbing repairs, mend toys or assemble boxed furniture according to the accompanying hieroglyphical instruction sheet ended in confusion, failure and frustration. Despite having managed to make it through medical school and support a family as a more or less successful executive and psychiatrist, I considered myself to be a mechanical idiot. I was convinced I was deficient in some gene, or by curse of nature lacking some mystical quality responsible for mechanical ability. Then one day at the end of my thirty-seventh year, while taking a spring Sunday walk, I happened upon a neighbor in the process of re-pairing a lawn mower. After greeting him I remarked, "Boy, I sure admire you. I've never been able to fix those kind of things or do anything like that." My neighbor, without a moment's hesitation, shot back, "That's because you don't take the time."... > The issue is important, because many people simply do not take the time necessary to solve many of life's intellectual, social or spiritual problems, just as I did not take the time to solve mechanical problems... > And this is precisely the way that so many of us approach other dilemmas of day-to-day living. Who among us can say that they unfailingly devote sufficient time to analyzing their children's problems or tensions within the family? Who among us is so self-disciplined that he or she never says resignedly in the face of family problems, "It's beyond me"?... > Actually, there is a defect in the approach to problem-solving more primitive and more destructive than impatiently in-adequate attempts to find instant solutions, a defect even more ubiquitous and universal. It is the hope that problems will go away of their own accord. >Problems do not go away. They must be worked through or else they remain, forever a barrier to the growth and development of the spirit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#The_Road_Less_Traveled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#The_Road_Less_Tr...
svieira 2y ago
After the magnificent concert one patron of the arts gushed to the virtuoso "oh, I would gladly trade half my life to play as well as you could!" The virtuoso replied after a moment's thought, "that's precisely what it cost!"

notnaut 2y ago

Practice now, realize later, feels deeply dualistic to me.

bowsamic 2y ago
He’s saying practise is realisation, which is a concept developed by Dogen, the founder of Soto Zen
marmaduke 2y ago
that’s not what the story says. in any case, the point is to explain, in terms of dualistic if-then logic, that the if (you practice now) and then (you will wake up) are a single non-dual thing. but to communicate in in terms which make sense to the dual, if-then mind, one needs to use dualistic language.
plasticchris 2y ago
I imagine he would say to practice is to realize and to realize is to practice.
numpad0 2y ago
Isn't it just saying, a gain realized from compound interest over long-enough time is crazy yet short term gains is practically zero, yet total gain is anything but zero, and also there really isn't a magical zero effort quick and easy jackpot skill gain IRL
- gsf_emergency 2y ago
  It isn't. Because when they put it much more sensuous & yet concrete terms, than the one of numbers & cents, the reader's mind might be primed to apply the idea to more general problems if & whenever they do arise, such as the problem of finding the right problem to solve.

velcrovan 2y ago

My favorite imagery of this idea comes from the last two stanzas of a poem: For while the tired waves, vainly breaking Seem here no painful inch to gain, Far back through creeks and inlets making, Comes silent, flooding in, the main. And not by eastern windows only, When daylight comes, comes in the light, In front the sun climbs slow, how slowly, But westward, look, the land is bright. — Arthur Hugh Clough https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43959/say-not-the-struggle-nought-availeth https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43959/say-not-the-str...

tylerchr 2y ago
You’ve just introduced me to a good poem. Thanks!

ratmeadow 2y ago

I can't help but feel like our modern society has sadly become the opposite of what this quote is talking about. Rather than slow and accepting, we're all about doing things fast and efficiently and betterment at all costs. The growth mindset, get up and grind, etc etc. Can't you practice faster? Learn faster? Put in more time? Even the most a human can reasonably do is never enough nowadays. High achievement is the new table stakes. IMO it's time for our society to take a hike and allow us to return to the spirit of the quote you've shared.

brewtide 2y ago
I'm fortunate enough to live in kinda nowhere land considering, so this is from the perspective of nowhere land (people with space and nature etc). I was hoping that the large COVID response in this country at the start of it all would finally get people to breathe, slow, and all that you mention. For a while , around my location, you could see life almost returning to a more connected to life, life. When things settled down, nothing much seemed to stick. The rat race restarted the grid is good to go, and the pace ever more frantic. People can, will, do, and should do whatever it is that makes them live their fulfilled life, 100%. I just hope they do it for themselves, not for others. Would be a shame.

LeftHandPath 2y ago

Wow. The fog example is fantastic. ...Reminds me of how I ruined my old wallet, hiking thirty miles on a foggy day in Algonquin Provincial Park.

atulatul 2y ago

I did not post this earlier because what the post says and what I am going quote are not exactly same. Time on Progress-craft/ Problem Solving. But maybe at some level of abstraction, the idea is same. Quoting from 'The Road Less Traveled' by M. Soctt Peck.[0] Section on Problem-Solving and Time: > At the age of thirty-seven I learned how to fix things. Prior to that time almost all my attempts to make minor plumbing repairs, mend toys or assemble boxed furniture according to the accompanying hieroglyphical instruction sheet ended in confusion, failure and frustration. Despite having managed to make it through medical school and support a family as a more or less successful executive and psychiatrist, I considered myself to be a mechanical idiot. I was convinced I was deficient in some gene, or by curse of nature lacking some mystical quality responsible for mechanical ability. Then one day at the end of my thirty-seventh year, while taking a spring Sunday walk, I happened upon a neighbor in the process of re-pairing a lawn mower. After greeting him I remarked, "Boy, I sure admire you. I've never been able to fix those kind of things or do anything like that." My neighbor, without a moment's hesitation, shot back, "That's because you don't take the time."... > The issue is important, because many people simply do not take the time necessary to solve many of life's intellectual, social or spiritual problems, just as I did not take the time to solve mechanical problems... > And this is precisely the way that so many of us approach other dilemmas of day-to-day living. Who among us can say that they unfailingly devote sufficient time to analyzing their children's problems or tensions within the family? Who among us is so self-disciplined that he or she never says resignedly in the face of family problems, "It's beyond me"?... > Actually, there is a defect in the approach to problem-solving more primitive and more destructive than impatiently in-adequate attempts to find instant solutions, a defect even more ubiquitous and universal. It is the hope that problems will go away of their own accord. >Problems do not go away. They must be worked through or else they remain, forever a barrier to the growth and development of the spirit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#The_Road_Less_Traveled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#The_Road_Less_Tr...

svieira 2y ago

After the magnificent concert one patron of the arts gushed to the virtuoso "oh, I would gladly trade half my life to play as well as you could!" The virtuoso replied after a moment's thought, "that's precisely what it cost!"