4 ms·

Can't agree more. Especially as I wait to download 1.3gb file to update some Windows driver like Realtek audio or LED display, and you realise a whole effing De

Can't agree more. Especially as I wait to download 1.3gb file to update some Windows driver like Realtek audio or LED display, and you realise a whole effing Debian operating system with Xfce & apps can fit in a lot less.

Dalewyn 2y ago
Whoever are downvoting this really don't understand that expanding a congested highway merely widens the congestion instead of alleviating it. Software today require several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores just to render some simple fucking text because everyone has several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores.
- kopirgan 2y ago
  Thanks..Among many other issues, it is also a serious crippling factor for communities and countries that are low on budget/resources & a disaster for recycling, climate change etc etc.
- jasdi 2y ago
  This is one of the biggest reasons why China or India are threat to the West. Because their Engineers are constantly in situations were they have to work with much less resources. And they come up with stuff that constantly surprises people for being much cheaper. The western reaction is to then go and buy them out. Its not going to work forever. They have already taken over large swathes of the tech landscape. Even with AI for example, Real Time inference is not required in majority of cases. But the western engineer and corp exec in big tech, are used to buying new data centers everyday (not because of specific Customer Demand, but because of intent to capture market/snuff out competition/build moats or what ever bs an environment of over abundance has trained them to do) and then they have zillions of machines idling which they use to provide real-time inference raising the cost for everyone. Sooner or later someone in China or India working on non real time inference will offer large corps much cheaper solutions. The Western model is where you forget how to cook a meal at home, and end up relying on McDonalds for food, because they are everywhere, thanks to their prime directive of survival via opening new stores everyday.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    For how much we all bitch about beancounters, I'm kind of surprised that beancounters haven't managed to convince management to buy bottom-of-the-barrel Celeron laptops for software developers. Make those fucking assholes use the hardware of the people instead of some monstrosity with a 256 cores CPU and 48 TB of RAM and 24 exabytes of enterprise SSD and an RTX Cinco Grande connected via optical fiber to the Amazonflare Cloudnet. We will see lean and mean software literally overnight.
    - rapind 2y ago
      > Make those fucking assholes use the hardware of the people Are you sure it’s the engineers who are being complacent? I know quite a few coders who’d love nothing more than to spend months on optimizations eking out small performance gains. Their bosses (or the market) don’t let them.
    - janalsncm 2y ago
      Because shipping fast almost always beats speed/memory optimization. The only reason to even do performance optimization is if it is a constraint on the problem itself (e.g. you work in gaming or HFT). If shipping fast means you spend an extra $1000 once per developer, guess what almost every company is going to do?
    - mangamadaiyan 2y ago
      It should be possible to achieve the same end by forcing management to use the "hardware of the people", getting them to do nontrivial on-call duty frequently, and making them dogfood what they make. The real fucking assholes are the ones that enable the fucking assholes you refer to.
    - brabel 2y ago
      I have access to a couple of Macbook Pros and a Linux machine with very good processors, but I do my hobby development all in an old Macbook Air. That allows me to see when my code runs slowly much more clearly. On an M1, everything just runs so fast you don't notice when you have a serious performance issue which is painfully obvious on the Macbook Air! I recommend doing that, though it does require patience waiting for things that are instant on the better machines.
- jl6 2y ago
  The bloat is real, but it’s not all bloat. We ask for a lot more from our software today. Simple example: rendering text isn’t that simple when we expect full Unicode support. It’s not altogether different from how everything seems to be much more expensive than it was in the 1950s. There are many real and concerning reasons for that, but one less concerning reason is that we have higher standards and expectations now, and that translates to higher cost.
  - kopirgan 2y ago
    I really would like to know what's good bloat and bad bloat like they say with Taliban. To give a random example, Apache http server for windows is less than 12mb download. I used to download Oracle's http which I'm told is based on that, but that's like 1GB++ haven't checked in recent years.
    - icemelt8 2y ago
      That is such a well-informed inside joke about Taliban, I am amazed.
      - Physkal 2y ago
        Would you mind an explanation.
        selimthegrim 2y ago
        The trope is so-called “good” Taliban and “bad” Taliban.

Dalewyn 2y ago

Whoever are downvoting this really don't understand that expanding a congested highway merely widens the congestion instead of alleviating it. Software today require several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores just to render some simple fucking text because everyone has several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores.

kopirgan 2y ago
Thanks..Among many other issues, it is also a serious crippling factor for communities and countries that are low on budget/resources & a disaster for recycling, climate change etc etc.
jasdi 2y ago
This is one of the biggest reasons why China or India are threat to the West. Because their Engineers are constantly in situations were they have to work with much less resources. And they come up with stuff that constantly surprises people for being much cheaper. The western reaction is to then go and buy them out. Its not going to work forever. They have already taken over large swathes of the tech landscape. Even with AI for example, Real Time inference is not required in majority of cases. But the western engineer and corp exec in big tech, are used to buying new data centers everyday (not because of specific Customer Demand, but because of intent to capture market/snuff out competition/build moats or what ever bs an environment of over abundance has trained them to do) and then they have zillions of machines idling which they use to provide real-time inference raising the cost for everyone. Sooner or later someone in China or India working on non real time inference will offer large corps much cheaper solutions. The Western model is where you forget how to cook a meal at home, and end up relying on McDonalds for food, because they are everywhere, thanks to their prime directive of survival via opening new stores everyday.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  For how much we all bitch about beancounters, I'm kind of surprised that beancounters haven't managed to convince management to buy bottom-of-the-barrel Celeron laptops for software developers. Make those fucking assholes use the hardware of the people instead of some monstrosity with a 256 cores CPU and 48 TB of RAM and 24 exabytes of enterprise SSD and an RTX Cinco Grande connected via optical fiber to the Amazonflare Cloudnet. We will see lean and mean software literally overnight.
  - rapind 2y ago
    > Make those fucking assholes use the hardware of the people Are you sure it’s the engineers who are being complacent? I know quite a few coders who’d love nothing more than to spend months on optimizations eking out small performance gains. Their bosses (or the market) don’t let them.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    Because shipping fast almost always beats speed/memory optimization. The only reason to even do performance optimization is if it is a constraint on the problem itself (e.g. you work in gaming or HFT). If shipping fast means you spend an extra $1000 once per developer, guess what almost every company is going to do?
  - mangamadaiyan 2y ago
    It should be possible to achieve the same end by forcing management to use the "hardware of the people", getting them to do nontrivial on-call duty frequently, and making them dogfood what they make. The real fucking assholes are the ones that enable the fucking assholes you refer to.
  - brabel 2y ago
    I have access to a couple of Macbook Pros and a Linux machine with very good processors, but I do my hobby development all in an old Macbook Air. That allows me to see when my code runs slowly much more clearly. On an M1, everything just runs so fast you don't notice when you have a serious performance issue which is painfully obvious on the Macbook Air! I recommend doing that, though it does require patience waiting for things that are instant on the better machines.
jl6 2y ago
The bloat is real, but it’s not all bloat. We ask for a lot more from our software today. Simple example: rendering text isn’t that simple when we expect full Unicode support. It’s not altogether different from how everything seems to be much more expensive than it was in the 1950s. There are many real and concerning reasons for that, but one less concerning reason is that we have higher standards and expectations now, and that translates to higher cost.
- kopirgan 2y ago
  I really would like to know what's good bloat and bad bloat like they say with Taliban. To give a random example, Apache http server for windows is less than 12mb download. I used to download Oracle's http which I'm told is based on that, but that's like 1GB++ haven't checked in recent years.
  - icemelt8 2y ago
    That is such a well-informed inside joke about Taliban, I am amazed.
    - Physkal 2y ago
      Would you mind an explanation.
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        The trope is so-called “good” Taliban and “bad” Taliban.