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I have a question for the floor - given the worsening situation with technological unemployment, and the structural inability of capitalism to cope with it (who

by exe34 2y ago

I have a question for the floor - given the worsening situation with technological unemployment, and the structural inability of capitalism to cope with it (who will buy the products when nobody has a job?), is it possible that China will be able to pivot to UBI and push on ahead? they have enormous control over the population and economy, so they might be able to change direction faster than the West?

sinuhe69 2y ago
Even in their 'classic years', communist states could never provide UBI to their citizens. Sure, the state employed most people outside the agricultural sector, but even so, they have to grade salaries and food ratios. As far as I know, at no point in the history of communism have they been able to provide a basic income without work, let alone a UBI. Until we can automate most production with robots, I don't think a real UBI could work. Ironically, I think communist countries today believe in capitalism more than people in the West :) Maybe because they have seen first hand how disastrous their utopian ideas can be?
- exe34 2y ago
  my question is what happens when nobody can afford the stuff that's being produced anymore? I understand that communism hasn't worked so far, but if you don't feed the hordes, you can get Luigied.
  - sinuhe69 2y ago
    The "technological unemployment" you mentioned can only happen if robots/AI replace most of the jobs on the market. But then it means that we have already automated most production and therefore UBI could be an option (taxing the machine). Otherwise, there will always be a demand for labor. It's not just production that the world economy is about. I see no limit to growth in services such as health, education and entertainment once basic provision is secured.
    - exe34 2y ago
      you assume that people can be retrained instantly or that they can afford to support themselves while they retrain, or even that they even have the capability to learn new trades/skills. in practice in the past I think a lot of people have simply dropped out of the workforce and relied on welfare.

by exe34 2y ago

sinuhe69 2y ago

Even in their 'classic years', communist states could never provide UBI to their citizens. Sure, the state employed most people outside the agricultural sector, but even so, they have to grade salaries and food ratios. As far as I know, at no point in the history of communism have they been able to provide a basic income without work, let alone a UBI. Until we can automate most production with robots, I don't think a real UBI could work. Ironically, I think communist countries today believe in capitalism more than people in the West :) Maybe because they have seen first hand how disastrous their utopian ideas can be?

exe34 2y ago
my question is what happens when nobody can afford the stuff that's being produced anymore? I understand that communism hasn't worked so far, but if you don't feed the hordes, you can get Luigied.
- sinuhe69 2y ago
  The "technological unemployment" you mentioned can only happen if robots/AI replace most of the jobs on the market. But then it means that we have already automated most production and therefore UBI could be an option (taxing the machine). Otherwise, there will always be a demand for labor. It's not just production that the world economy is about. I see no limit to growth in services such as health, education and entertainment once basic provision is secured.
  - exe34 2y ago
    you assume that people can be retrained instantly or that they can afford to support themselves while they retrain, or even that they even have the capability to learn new trades/skills. in practice in the past I think a lot of people have simply dropped out of the workforce and relied on welfare.