7 ms·

Right. The implication, in my mind at least, is that fighting poverty should be one of the key goals of society. Being in poverty effectively hides gifts as p

Right. The implication, in my mind at least, is that fighting poverty should be one of the key goals of society. Being in poverty effectively hides gifts as poverty will dominate "natural" ability.

scott_s 14y ago
Perhaps related, "Preschool: The Best Job-Training Program": http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/12/139583385/preschool-the-best-job-training-program http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/12/139583385/preschoo...
jessriedel 14y ago
Reply to scott_s: In that article, note that the study addressed the effect of pre-school on strongly disadvantaged children: "Only disadvantaged children living in adverse circumstances who had low IQ scores and a low index of family socioeconomic status were eligible to participate in the Perry program."
- scott_s 14y ago
  Right, it's not an experiment for the conditions under discussion. It is, however, an experiment which demonstrates the importance of early childhood environment.
stephengillie 14y ago
How do you define "poverty"? Most impoverished Americans have TVs and microwaves.
- vectorpush 14y ago
  >Most impoverished Americans have TVs and microwaves. What's your point? Ownership of an arbitrary appliance doesn't mean you're able to put food on the table or afford tuition for your children. You don't need to eat a TV every night to survive nor can you fill up your gas tank on microwaves. Besides, in the developed world, TVs and microwaves are a dime a dozen and are regularly discarded because their abundance makes them worth so little. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/zip?query=tv+&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk= http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/zip?query=tv+&srchTyp...
  - randomdata 14y ago
    He asked a good question. To what level does the bar need to rise to eliminate poverty as something that holds someone back? Is easy access to food and education that level? My gut feeling that wealth disparity is a bigger issue than absolute wealth. If the poor lived in mansions and drove Ferraris, but the rich owned entire islands and private rocket ships that travel to Mars, the poor people still wouldn't have access to what the wealthier people have, still setting them back from achieving their true potential.
    - vectorpush 14y ago
      >If the poor lived in mansions and drove Ferraris, but the rich owned entire islands and private rocket ships that travel to Mars, the poor people still wouldn't have access to what the wealthier people have, still setting them back from achieving their true potential. It's not about absolute material equity, it's about comfortably meeting one's needs such that second order concerns (like studying or tinkering with a mobile SDK) become viable pursuits. Living in a mansion means you can likely afford food, rent, transportation, insurance, healthcare, tuition, and all the other expenses that leave the poor with little room for "achieving true potential".
  - ShawnBird 14y ago
    Anecdotal evidence: When I was the poorest I have ever been I had a TV and microwave. My microwave came with my apartment and the TV was free because a neighbor had just got a new one. I still had to live off ramen.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    What's your point? Ownership of an arbitrary appliance doesn't mean you're able to put food on the table... Most impoverished Americans overeat. The average poor American is borderline obese. http://webarchives.cdlib.org/sw1vh5dg3r/http://ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February06/Features/feature4.htm http://webarchives.cdlib.org/sw1vh5dg3r/http://ers.usda.gov/...
    - nitrogen 14y ago
- maxerickson 14y ago
  A microwave costs a couple of days of labor in the U.S. and then lasts for a couple of years. It's a pretty basic item these days. For evaluating the impact on life outcomes, why not define poverty as the state where (lack of) financial resources frequently limit the choices available to an individual? I don't think poverty is fully explained by external factors, but I think that unexpected events do tend to have a larger impact on people with limited resources, often exacerbating their problems.
  - stephengillie 14y ago
    Your reply captures the sentiment very well - ownership of a microwave really isn't a good indicator of poverty. It IS a good indicator of the kind of systemic poverty that exists. Simply by luck of being born within the US, I'm privileged with higher wages which gives me the opportunity to purchase one, and easier access to buy such appliances. I can purchase one at any time (24/7) for an hour's wage, if not less. For evaluating the impact on life outcomes, why not define poverty as the state where (lack of) financial resources frequently limit the choices available to an individual? I like your definition for poverty. I'm well acquainted with our (US) social services that provide food, shelter, clothing, transportation, basic phone and internet service, and education funding to any parent, woman, or child, and some single men. By this definition, I'm led to believe that poverty doesn't exist within the US, even though myself and most of my friends and family fall below the "poverty line".
Symmetry 14y ago
Or at least we should be pushing micro-nutrient supplements. And encouraging school lunch programs.
- nollidge 14y ago
  Not that that isn't a great thing to do, but how does that help anyone overcome the limits on opportunity that poverty places on them?
  - pjscott 14y ago
    Malnutrition can be one such limit of opportunity, if it harms development in childhood. It's also one of the easiest things to fix; giving children nutritional supplements and subsidized school lunches is pretty cheap and straightforward, compared to just about any other method of ameliorating poverty.
    - nollidge 14y ago
      Ah, OK, I see what you're saying.
- CWuestefeld 14y ago
  That's a pretty huge assumption, that micro-nutrients are a significant part of any difference. You've assumed, first, that it's poverty that causes the lowered IQ, rather than that both poverty and lower-IQ are both effects of a common cause. Second, even if there really is a causal chain, why in the world would you assume that the difference is related to nutrition? Why not, for example, cultural differences in the way that poor parents interact with children compared with the way that non-poor parents do?
  - Symmetry 14y ago
    If poverty doesn't cause lowered IQ how would explain children adopted into non-improrished households having higher IQs? I don't have good evidence that nutrition is the primary factor here, but there is a lot of research saying that nutrition is important with respect to IQ.

Right. The implication, in my mind at least, is that fighting poverty should be one of the key goals of society. Being in poverty effectively hides gifts as poverty will dominate "natural" ability.

scott_s 14y ago

Perhaps related, "Preschool: The Best Job-Training Program": http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/12/139583385/preschool-the-best-job-training-program http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/12/139583385/preschoo...

jessriedel 14y ago

Reply to scott_s: In that article, note that the study addressed the effect of pre-school on strongly disadvantaged children: "Only disadvantaged children living in adverse circumstances who had low IQ scores and a low index of family socioeconomic status were eligible to participate in the Perry program."

scott_s 14y ago
Right, it's not an experiment for the conditions under discussion. It is, however, an experiment which demonstrates the importance of early childhood environment.

stephengillie 14y ago

How do you define "poverty"? Most impoverished Americans have TVs and microwaves.

vectorpush 14y ago
>Most impoverished Americans have TVs and microwaves. What's your point? Ownership of an arbitrary appliance doesn't mean you're able to put food on the table or afford tuition for your children. You don't need to eat a TV every night to survive nor can you fill up your gas tank on microwaves. Besides, in the developed world, TVs and microwaves are a dime a dozen and are regularly discarded because their abundance makes them worth so little. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/zip?query=tv+&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk= http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/zip?query=tv+&srchTyp...
- randomdata 14y ago
  He asked a good question. To what level does the bar need to rise to eliminate poverty as something that holds someone back? Is easy access to food and education that level? My gut feeling that wealth disparity is a bigger issue than absolute wealth. If the poor lived in mansions and drove Ferraris, but the rich owned entire islands and private rocket ships that travel to Mars, the poor people still wouldn't have access to what the wealthier people have, still setting them back from achieving their true potential.
  - vectorpush 14y ago
    >If the poor lived in mansions and drove Ferraris, but the rich owned entire islands and private rocket ships that travel to Mars, the poor people still wouldn't have access to what the wealthier people have, still setting them back from achieving their true potential. It's not about absolute material equity, it's about comfortably meeting one's needs such that second order concerns (like studying or tinkering with a mobile SDK) become viable pursuits. Living in a mansion means you can likely afford food, rent, transportation, insurance, healthcare, tuition, and all the other expenses that leave the poor with little room for "achieving true potential".
- ShawnBird 14y ago
  Anecdotal evidence: When I was the poorest I have ever been I had a TV and microwave. My microwave came with my apartment and the TV was free because a neighbor had just got a new one. I still had to live off ramen.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  What's your point? Ownership of an arbitrary appliance doesn't mean you're able to put food on the table... Most impoverished Americans overeat. The average poor American is borderline obese. http://webarchives.cdlib.org/sw1vh5dg3r/http://ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/February06/Features/feature4.htm http://webarchives.cdlib.org/sw1vh5dg3r/http://ers.usda.gov/...
  - nitrogen 14y ago
maxerickson 14y ago
A microwave costs a couple of days of labor in the U.S. and then lasts for a couple of years. It's a pretty basic item these days. For evaluating the impact on life outcomes, why not define poverty as the state where (lack of) financial resources frequently limit the choices available to an individual? I don't think poverty is fully explained by external factors, but I think that unexpected events do tend to have a larger impact on people with limited resources, often exacerbating their problems.
- stephengillie 14y ago
  Your reply captures the sentiment very well - ownership of a microwave really isn't a good indicator of poverty. It IS a good indicator of the kind of systemic poverty that exists. Simply by luck of being born within the US, I'm privileged with higher wages which gives me the opportunity to purchase one, and easier access to buy such appliances. I can purchase one at any time (24/7) for an hour's wage, if not less. For evaluating the impact on life outcomes, why not define poverty as the state where (lack of) financial resources frequently limit the choices available to an individual? I like your definition for poverty. I'm well acquainted with our (US) social services that provide food, shelter, clothing, transportation, basic phone and internet service, and education funding to any parent, woman, or child, and some single men. By this definition, I'm led to believe that poverty doesn't exist within the US, even though myself and most of my friends and family fall below the "poverty line".

Symmetry 14y ago

Or at least we should be pushing micro-nutrient supplements. And encouraging school lunch programs.

nollidge 14y ago
Not that that isn't a great thing to do, but how does that help anyone overcome the limits on opportunity that poverty places on them?
- pjscott 14y ago
  Malnutrition can be one such limit of opportunity, if it harms development in childhood. It's also one of the easiest things to fix; giving children nutritional supplements and subsidized school lunches is pretty cheap and straightforward, compared to just about any other method of ameliorating poverty.
  - nollidge 14y ago
    Ah, OK, I see what you're saying.
CWuestefeld 14y ago
That's a pretty huge assumption, that micro-nutrients are a significant part of any difference. You've assumed, first, that it's poverty that causes the lowered IQ, rather than that both poverty and lower-IQ are both effects of a common cause. Second, even if there really is a causal chain, why in the world would you assume that the difference is related to nutrition? Why not, for example, cultural differences in the way that poor parents interact with children compared with the way that non-poor parents do?
- Symmetry 14y ago
  If poverty doesn't cause lowered IQ how would explain children adopted into non-improrished households having higher IQs? I don't have good evidence that nutrition is the primary factor here, but there is a lot of research saying that nutrition is important with respect to IQ.