14 ms·

Zildjian, a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Massachusetts

• cf100clunk 2y ago
  A family dispute led to the founding of Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981. The products of both companies are considered amongst the best by percussionists.
  • EvanAnderson 2y ago
    Came here to say this. The origin of Sabian is a neat story. It also makes me thing of the Dassler brothers and Adidas / Puma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassler_brothers_feud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassler_brothers_feud
    • twalla 2y ago
      I was about to comment this so instead I'll comment that Aldi (Trader Joes) and Lidl also arose out of a familial dispute over whether or not to sell alcohol.
      • jeroen 2y ago
        I think you mean Aldi Nord and Aldi Sud, _reportedly_ split over a dispute about selling cigarettes. Lidl is not related.
      • szvsw 2y ago
        Don’t forget the Russian and Turkish Baths in the east village (NYC) - my favorite instance of a familial dispute resulting in a business splitting. Now it is two businesses occupying the same physical location, but different temporal locations: when you get a pass it’s only valid for certain days of the week depending on which brother’s business you purchased it for.
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  • throw0101c 2y ago
    > Sabian is a Canadian cymbal manufacturing company based in New Brunswick. It was established in 1981 in the village of Meductic, which is now part of Lakeland Ridges, where the company is still headquartered. Sabian is considered one of the big four manufacturers of cymbals, along with Zildjian, Meinl and Paiste.[2] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabian_Cymbals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabian_Cymbals
  • lanstein 2y ago
    Yup - short for SAlly BIlly ANdy Zildjian
  • jasode 2y ago
    >Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981. Based on various interviews about the history of Zildjian & Sabian brothers splitting up, the Sabian Canada factory was originally a Zildjian 2nd site purposely placed outside of the USA. The brothers felt the Zildjian Canada factory solved 2 problems: 1) contingency factory that wasn't affected by unionizing labor in Boston MA. 2) easier (cheaper?) export logistics to Europe market from Canada. Don't remember the exact details. Deep link to Robert Zildjian interview talking in "polite language" about the union labor unrest as one motivation for creating the Canada factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s Another interview talked about the Europe market but I can't find that video. That Sabian interview always stuck with me because it isn't just the big companies like Amazon, Tesla, Starbucks, etc avoiding unionization. It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. Another video somewhere had the other Zildjian brother (Armand) talk about the unions but he wasn't as polite. EDIT to add another interview from Paul Francis (podcast mp3) about Zildjian opening the Canada factory in 1968 in response to the Teamsters unionization efforts in the USA. Relevant section starts at 45m20s : https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-paul-francis-director-of-cymbal-innovation-for-zildjian-cymbals https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-pa...
    • Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. It's surprising to you that no businesses of any size like unions? It's like finding out mice don't like cats regardless of size.
      • mydriasis 2y ago
        Is the implication that the employees of the company are the cats and not the mice?
        • AnimalMuppet 2y ago
          Well, the unions are the cats. The individual employees... not so much.
  • davexunit 2y ago
    I'm a long time fan of Sabian cymbals but good lord their new logo is so awful. The old one was way better and it's especially bad when compared to Zildjian's iconic logo.
    • senorrib 2y ago
      Yeah. I have no idea what they had in mind when they pulled off this logo that looks like was designed in wordart in the 90s.
  • the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    Fun fact: Sabian avoids the use of the name "Zildjian", even to refer to family members. They usually only write "Z". Robert Zildjian was routinely referred to as "RZ" and his son Andy as AZ.
    • leoc 2y ago
      IIRC the terms of the argeement under which the intra-family dispute was settled required Sabian to avoid advertising the Zildjian connection, so I assume they're being careful about that.
  • zild3d 2y ago
    There's 4 brands that essentially dominate the market Zildjian Sabian (started by Robert Zildjian) Meinl (German) Paiste (Swiss)
  • CPLX 2y ago
    As a long time drummer and studio engineer and so on I'd say that there's definitely a hierarchy, where Zildjian and Meinl are considered the best, and Sabian and Paiste are a step down. But like all matters of taste that's arguable, and someone will probably come along and argue it. That's my impression of how drummers view the brands though.
• zeristor 2y ago
  How hard would it be to work out the metallurgy of the cymbals, but I think the Zildjian name is so cool, why bother.
  • darth_avocado 2y ago
    Someone had a similar thought and that’s why Soultone exists.
    • DontchaKnowit 2y ago
      Soultone cymbals are AWESOME. Absolutely love my soultone crash, anf it was dirt cheap
  • bigstrat2003 2y ago
    One would imagine pretty hard, given that the company hasn't been overrun by competitors. Not to say it's impossible, but generally when something isn't commonplace that is a good sign it's hard.
    • saghm 2y ago
      One of my childhood friends works at Zildjian and has been involved in their metallurgy stuff lately (his picture is actually in the article!). From what he's alluded to, it sounds like they consider their trade secrets around their processes to be the main reason for their competitive advantage, and they're extremely careful about who they're shared with even internally, and the number of people who know some of them probably number only in the single digits.
      • wileydragonfly 2y ago
        They probably pee in it. That’s usually the secret.
  • datavirtue 2y ago
    Silver is one of the other major metals in the alloy. Odd that this is not mentioned.
• facialwipe 2y ago
  A (very) mildly interesting tidbit... I used to do IT for a vendor that injection-molded low durometer plastic washers for Zildjian. They placed a single large PO annually. 99% of the population would identify these as 'rubber' washers. Nope, they're polyurethane.
  • bluGill 2y ago
    I'm surprised. Most companies are moving to Just In time. A contract to supply for a year, and often secret insight into order books so the supplier can work with their supplier when they need things. You still need some buffer because interruptions will happen, but storing a years worth of use means you pay for space to store all that. (it gets worse if someone invents a better washer and now your inventory is obsolete)
    • mrguyorama 2y ago
      >I'm surprised. Maybe a company that predates most existing nations has bigger priorities than "perfect our profit spreadsheet by cutting every corner". How much space do you think a year's worth of washers take up? They could easily be doing more frequent purchases for their larger inputs. Seeing as they also predate science, they might have experience with things changing over time and how that affects supply. Or they don't, and it's much easier to weather bad events and business mistakes when your focus is on reliably producing high quality product for reasonable prices for centuries, to the point where your name is nearly synonymous with the product, your customers will always wait for you or come back. Maybe, instead, those pushing "Just in time" everything should learn a thing or two from the company that has produced a reliably quality product for centuries.
• lysace 2y ago
  A version of the full history is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company It's not easy to summarize. I really recommend reading the whole thing. > The company was founded in Constantinople in 1623 by Avedis Zildjian, an Armenian metalsmith and alchemist. ... > After the death of Avedis, the business, and the secret for producing the metal, was handed down to several generations of male heirs. ... > In 1850, Avedis II built a 25-foot schooner, in order to sail cymbals produced in Constantinople to trade exhibitions such as the Great Exhibition in London, and to supply musicians in Europe. ... > Haroutune II's son Avedis III had left Armenia for the United States in 1909, and settled in Boston, where he established a family and a confectionary business. In 1927, he received a letter from his uncle Aram, informing him that he was to become heir to the family business, and Aram came to the US. ... > Avedis III sought out jazz drummers like Gene Krupa to understand their needs.
  • shortlived 2y ago
    I also recommend listening to the drum history podcast which has episodes with Zildjian and Sabian family members.
• brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  Has anyone synthesized the sound of a Zildjian cymbal from scratch? ie impulse response hit depending on intensity scaled 0 to 1 > makes the sound
  • szvsw 2y ago
    Percussion synthesis is a deep and wonderful practice within electronic music, especially techno and especially in its more experimental manifestations. I’ve never encountered anything specifically claiming to emulate specific cymbals but I’m sure it’s out there galore. In any case, cymbal and hihat synthesis is a classic task in techno production.
  • sctb 2y ago
    Cymbals aren't like speakers, microphones, or rooms, whose inputs are audio and can therefore be modelled with IR via an impulse input. (Well, you can model a cymbal with IR and use it as a reverberator, like a speaker.) AFAIK, what you're talking about would probably fall into the category of physical modelling, and there's quite a bit of development happening there currently.
    • datavirtue 2y ago
      Yeah, there is so much more than just hitting these cymbals. How and where and how hard. Anyone who strikes one is not likely to ever forget the experience and it takes quite a while to even scratch the surface of how many different sounds can be produced with each model using various techniques. I used to crawl around drum sets when I was a baby as my father was a professional musician. I mounted the set as soon as I could and it was the only instrument I was was ever really interested in. Alas, I was heavily discouraged from pursuing music as a child by my mother. She blamed our shit life on my father and his obsession with music and he basically quit after the divorce and went into entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock) to pay our child support. I digress.
      • phkahler 2y ago
        >> She blamed our shit life on my father and his obsession with music and he basically quit after the divorce and went into entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock) to pay our child support. Sounds like there was some truth in what your mom said?
• RajT88 2y ago
  > At the time jazz was exploding, so Avedis III travelled to New York City so he could develop new sounds with pioneers, including Gene Krupa. “Not only was he a fabulous drummer,” Debbie said, “he was also very flamboyant in his style.” This made Krupa an ideal ambassador for Zildjian. Yeah wow, they have some of the world's absolute best drummers using their symbols. > Lars Ulrich of Metallica Also some so-so ones.
• jcalabro 2y ago
  I grew up in the town next door to Norwell and I play the drums. I drove by many times and would have loved to have gone in and seen if they might have given a high school student a quick tour of the less-secret parts of the factory, but I never did. There was definitely a strong drumming community in the area; there were some fantastic players and teachers around (i.e. Steve Smith from Journey was born in Whitman). Not sure if that's because of Zildjian, but it was a fun place to grow up and play music. It might just be that there are so many strong music universities in the area.
• kibwen 2y ago
  I'd be interested in the history of the Zildjian trademark, which is an iconic masterpiece of design by this point. It looks like it was intended to evoke the flowing calligraphy of the older Arabic trademark ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company#/media/File%3AK_Constantinople_Big_Band_Ride_21.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company#/media... ), though in truth it looks like a fairly ordinary application of Latin Uncial script (the "d" and especially the "a" are a dead giveaway).
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • fakedang 2y ago
    The Turks would be very displeased with you calling it "their Arabic trademark".
    • neonnoodle 2y ago
      The Armenian Zildjians might be displeased to be called Turks.
      • jimmydddd 2y ago
        Yeah, something about 1915 or such.
        • woketemptation 2y ago
          [dead]
      • fakedang 2y ago
        Considering they received their start through the patronage of the Ottoman Emperor, I doubt that, else that element would have been erased from their history. Turks, maybe not, but Ottomans they were. They moved the business to the US before the genocide though (and in good time too!), so not sure how they would have been affected.
• hombre_fatal 2y ago
  Every 15yo boy wore a Zildjian shirt in my high school. I still strongly associate it with being 15 wannabe. Kinda killed the brand for me.
  • urronglol 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • deleted 2y ago
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  • actionfromafar 2y ago
    Still, that school must have been comparatively awesome.
  • jameshart 2y ago
    While some kids adopt symbols to signal ingroup membership, at your school they chose cymbals.
    • hombre_fatal 2y ago
      Yeah, just a low effort drive by comment of mine driven by nostalgia. Was feelin a little mischievous.
  • quesera 2y ago
    I try to be charitable with 15 year old wannabes. Because 15 year olds who don't wannabe something, generally don't turn out interesting. And most 15 year olds who already have their life figured out are either wrong or boring. But these are perspectives from a few decades later. At the time, I too had strong opinions about people who wore their aspirations on (or between) their sleeves. We called them poseurs. Because we had more opinions than knowledge. Like 15 year olds. :) (Aside: you have to admit though: The Zildjian logotype is pretty great. Also, because you'd often get a free t-shirt with purchase, it was hard to tell the legit from the poseur without getting them to sit at the kit.)
  • 2y ago
• zem 2y ago
  zildjian cymbal cases are popular in the tournament scrabble community for carrying round boards, though less so these days since foldable boards took over from the rigid ones.
• lc3sim 2y ago
  As a drummer, I believe the title of this article is a little misleading. Such a title better represent cymbal factories that are located in Istanbul that use centuries old manufacturing processes. Although Zildjian is undeniably iconic, the same could be said about Bosphorus Cymbals and a few other companies I won't name.
  • saghm 2y ago
    Has the title changed since you posted this comment? It's not clear to me why "a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Massachusetts" would have to imply that the processes are 400 years old, or that the company was always located in Massachusetts, or that there aren't any other old cymbal companies elsewhere.
    • kasabali 2y ago
      Missing context in the comment you replied to is that hand made cymbal companies in Istanbul can all be traced back to the old Zildjian factory there Here I found a news story in English summarizing the situation [1]: > The Zildjian company moved to the United States in 1929, while Avedis III moved the Zildjian factory to Quincy, Massachusetts, and then to its current location in nearby Norwell for Zildjian’s 350th anniversary. > ... As one arm of the Zildjian family was building a huge brand in the U.S., those who remained in Turkey continued making cymbals until 1978, when Mikael Zildjian died. > Tamdeğer said he felt desperate after his master’s death. Following two years of jewelry business in Kuwait, he re-founded the old business with his former colleague, Agop Tomurcuk, another Turkish-Armenian. 1. https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/zildjian-family-apprentice-still-making-historic-cymbals-in-istanbul--74444 https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/zildjian-family-apprentice...
      • Aloisius 2y ago
        US-based A. Zildjian Co bought Istanbul-based K. Zildjian Co in 1968 - where Mikael, who married into the family, worked. So this is arguably the original company.
• Aardwolf 2y ago
  Now I really wonder: what did the company and the equipment used look like 400 years ago. And what music style were cymbals used for 400 years ago?
  • bluGill 2y ago
    Drums of various sorts have been a constant in music since long before recorded history.
• sedatk 2y ago
  "Zildjian" is an Armenian last name, but "Zildji" (zilci) means "cymbalist"/"cymbal-maker", or more generically, "bell-maker" in Turkish. "-ian" is the Armenian patronymic suffix. The whole word means something like "Cymbalistson" which makes it the most fitting company name to produce cymbals.
  • nkurz 2y ago
    From the article, the cymbal-making came first, and then the name followed: The company’s proprietary alloy was alchemized 13 generations ago in Constantinople (now Istanbul) by Debbie Zildjian’s ancestor, Avedis I. He was trying to make gold, she said, but he ended up concocting a combination of copper and tin. “The mixing of those metals produced a very loud, resonant, beautiful sound,” she said. Debbie explained that in 1618 the Ottoman sultan summoned Avedis to the Topkapi Palace to make cymbals for elite military bands. The metalsmith’s work pleased the ruler, who gave him permission to found his own business in 1623. The sultan also bestowed Avedis the family name "Zildjian" which actually means cymbal maker. He went on to craft cymbals that were widely used, including in churches and by belly dancers.
    • sedatk 2y ago
      It makes sense though as "-ian" implies there was a "Zildji" before the brand existed. :)
      • leoc 2y ago
        The catch, though, is that ambiguity between 'cymbal-maker' and 'bell-maker'. 'Zil's certainly existed before the surname existed, but what was a zil/zill? In English 'zill' still usually refers to something like a 'finger cymbal' or crotal, something with thicker bell-like walls and a bell-like sound and vibration. Unfortunately everything I've read about this is suggestive but maddeningly vague, for example p. 8 https://books.google.ie/books?redir_esc=y&id=Fl6Ie0_Rt8cC&q=alloy#v=snippet&q=alloy&f=false https://books.google.ie/books?redir_esc=y&id=Fl6Ie0_Rt8cC&q=... of the official history, Zildjian: A History of the Legendary Cymbal Makers by Jon Cohan (ISBN 9780793591558 ): > Cymbals and bells had been made of bronze for centuries; the formula of eight parts of copper to two parts of tin was well known, but at some point Avedis stumbled upon a process of making a bronze alloy which held its strength and temper even when hammered and worked to a previously unimaginable thinness. The technique he discovered allowed cymbals to be made which had a distinct purity of tone that no other cymbal had ever achieved. The bronze alloy itself was no mystery, but the mixing process, the method of combining the metals in molten form to create the castings from which the cymbals was made, was a secret held only by Avedis. The resulting cymbals, said to contain traces of gold or silver, must have pleased the Sultan enough to commission Avedis to make cymbals for the Janissaries, the superior fighting forces of the Ottomans. The music of the Janissary bands relied profoundly on the striking of the cymbals, and Avedis became the official supplier to the Sultan. Bells ring when you hit them, but cymbals have a thin bow which vibrates wildly and crashes when hit. It's a radically different sound, and apparently a radically different physical behaviour, though I don't understand the physics. So what I suspect happened was this: thick-walled, bell-like zils had long been manufactured in Constantinople, in various different sizes. But Avedis I's alloy turned out to be (again, I assume) the first (at least in the Middle East or Europe) to allow zils to be made thin enough to crash like a cymbal, not just ring like a bell. This is presumably what the talk about "distinct purity of tone that no other cymbal had ever achieved" actually refers to. Since making thin-bowed cymbals is apparently a very tricky procedure which involves subjecting the blank to high pressure and high temperature at the same time, it seems plausible that Avedis' accidental breakthrough in metallurgy was necessary to make this possible. (OTOH maybe his real breakthrough was in that cymbal-making process; maybe his special recipe for the blanks was in fact less necessary than he realised, even?) A leap from ringing bell-like zills to crashing cymbals would be the kind of thing which could be dramatic enough to get the sultan to notice and to hand out a title, a trade monopoly and a cash prize. If the crash was a new sound, it must have seemed absolutely otherworldly at the time. (However I don't know when China started making crashing cymbals, whether some crashing cymbals from China might have made it to Constantinople by the early 1600s, and so on.)
• the__alchemist 2y ago
  This is heartening to see; Much of what I read about business here are driven by selling the company after a few years as the explicit goal from the start.
  • marxisttemp 2y ago
    Indeed, venture capital is a cancer, pumping out companies that never can and never will be profitable with the sole interest of increasingly centralized wealth.
• josefritzishere 2y ago
  If you get interested in early cymbal makers, Zildjian can trace it's origins back to the 1600s... that's hard to beat. But there are many from the turn of the century that are just as good but less well known like XE Ajaha. We're also in a bit of a "Golden Age" for young independent cymbal smiths. So there are fabulous, hand-made cymbals being made every day now. It's all about the bronze.
  • inanutshellus 2y ago
    > cymbals ... > that's hard to beat. :cough: I mean, they're not... that hard to beat... :cough:
    • moffkalast 2y ago
      Ba dum tss
• don-code 2y ago
  I lived down the street from the old Zildjian plant in Quincy. It's amazing how much product they were able to produce in such a small space. Sometime within the last ten years, it was knocked down and replaced with an apartment building even bigger than the plant.
• disillusioned 2y ago
  Funny to see this here today. I just bought a K Sweet cymbal pack yesterday from Guitar Center because I'm finally getting my drums back out after nearly a decade and my cymbal case (of Sabians) was stolen a few years ago from my storage unit. They sound amazing and hit the perfect balance for me.
  • jimmydddd 2y ago
    I had my drums in storage and a friend asked to borrow my Zildjians because he was going on tour. The ride especially had a nice sound. I ran into him about five years later, and remembered to ask about my cymbals. He just said, "Oh, I sold those." I guess he forgot the part about him "borrowing" them. :-)
    • tomcam 2y ago
      Ugh those stories enrage me. Musicians. Can’t live with ‘em, can’t shoot ‘em.
      • junon 2y ago
        Ah yes, the perfectly sane response and the perfect solution to everything.
    • spike021 2y ago
      Something similar happened to me. i wanted to learn guitar, so my sister’s friend lent me his fairly cheap Stratocaster IIRC, and after some months we were going to move pretty far away. we tried contacting the friend to give him back the guitar but could never connect. it’s been 18 years and i still have it. heh.
  • aczerepinski 2y ago
    I play K Sweet too! I love them.
• dosco189 2y ago
  There's a 1500 year old company - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong%C5%8D_Gumi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong%C5%8D_Gumi
  • Aloisius 2y ago
    What does that have to do with anything?
• hammock 2y ago
  Zildjian have long been the best cymbals for the "trashy" sound and Sabian for the "clean" sound. Great company
  • moogly 2y ago
    And Paiste for the "much better" sound I suppose. Been really impressed with Meinl's rise to competitiveness also. Used to not even exist in music shops when I was a teenager.
• y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
  I'm a relatively new drummer (<2 yrs as a hobby), but I'm not impressed with Zildjian so far. The cymbals have never sounded good to me - sounds "dirty" - and they feel fragile like they'd break easily. Guitar Center highly recommended their drumsticks, but after using them, I found they break easily and don't feel "right" (not sure how to pinpoint the exact issue) compared to Vic Firth sticks I have (which are excellent). I'm not sure if this is an atypical experience with the brand or not.
  • zzzeek 2y ago
    sticks are super personal and the breakage you'll find has a lot to do with things like thickness but also the wood, Vic Firth are hickory sticks which last a lot longer than a maple stick for example. (it also depends on how you are hitting things, what volume level, where you're hitting the stick, etc). but if a stick doesn't feel "right" that's not usually a stick quality issue it's just a weight balance that isn't your fit. that said I've not seen too many people using zildjian drumsticks, vic firth, pro mark tend to be the two big names. the cymbal thing is a whole different ballgame. if you're whacking the cymbals really hard and you're looking for a clean sound, you'd want to get thicker cymbals with less hammering that are more oriented towards hard rock playing. because yes if you have a pricey zildjian crash and you're slamming it all the time, it will crack eventually (sooner for a thinner cymbal) and that is not too abnormal of an incident. you might get more bang for your buck with a Paiste Rude cymbal.
  • myheadasplode 2y ago
    as a recording studio engineer and drummer, a secret about Zildjians is that while they may not sound the best in the room, their recorded sound still has something special that others don't. whether it's the right sound for the song is a different question, but when you need it, you'll be hard pressed to find it with another company.
    • giraffe_lady 2y ago
      P-bass spirit.
    • 2y ago
• nine_k 2y ago
  What impressed me is not just the secret of the alloy and processing that stays for 400 years, but the fact that they have six hundred models of cymbals! Say, Fender offers about a dozen models of guitars, and guitars arguably have more tweakable parts that affect the sound, the manner of play, and just the exterior.
  • michaelmior 2y ago
    Cymbals have a surprising amount of things that can be tweaked on them. I'd also imagine it's far cheaper to manufacture a new model of cymbal than it is a new model of guitar. That said, Fender lists hundreds of guitar models available on their website.
    • bluGill 2y ago
      There is a lot you can change on guitar. The wood species (including plywood) can get you 50 different models from otherwise the same patterns (there are hundreds of different wood possible, but not all of them will be compatible with your patterns - either not strong enough for the thickness, are known to sound bad and so not tried - Luther books have charts of pros and cons of different woods). You can put several different pickups in it (including none) Then you can put a few different styles of truss rod in, tuners, cover with one of a dozen different finishes - it is easy to get over a thousand possible combinations then select however many. That is for just one pattern, but there are many different patterns. Then we get into acoustic vs electric. Of course it isn't hard to create a new alloy for your cymbals either. The real question is how many different models is it worth putting into your catalog. There is a cost to each one - even if it never sells you have to be ready to make it which means keeping anything specific to that around (or at least have suppliers that commits to making whatever you would need on-demand)
      • nine_k 2y ago
        This is correct, but AFAIK if you buy, say, a Stratocaster, it can come in a number of different colors / finishes, maybe with a couple different options of wood for the fretboard, possibly a couple different options for the pickups, but this is still the same model. I suppose that the cymbals makers just cut their models more thinly.
• toss1 2y ago
  At college I was acquainted with one of the family who told me a story about when one of his uncles was in Egypt and on a tour of the pyramids or some ancient site. The guide said they had unearthed some bronze chisels used for stonecutting and their scientists had no idea how the alloy had been made that hard and tough. The uncle thought to himself "I know...", and smiled. He said they keep it very closely guarded, and have for centuries.
  • bluGill 2y ago
    I'm sure any competent chemist could figure it out (though it may be some destructive tests and it will cost more money than they are likely willing to spend. For that matter any competent metallurgist can give you a modern alloy that is likely better (alloys are of course a compromise so better in one area may be worse in a different one). Not that is matters as anyone today who wants to cut stone will use modern steel not bronze (unless they are trying to reproduce the old methods which can sometimes be valuable for understanding)
    • toss1 2y ago
      Of course there are better alloys today for all those specific uses (likely except musical). It was just a comment on the oddity that what the Egyptians were using had not yet been figured out, but that he knew. Despite all our vast current knowledge, there remain bits of arcane knowledge still hidden away in obscure corners. It's definitely NOT the case that "any competent chemist could figure it out". He'd also told me about an MIT team who had gotten closer than others to figuring it out, but gave up after the mixes/processes kept exploding on them. Definitely no lack of competence there, but maybe they did run out of budget or motivation to keep unintentionally blowing things up. It's not as trivial as you'd like to think.
  • lostwisdom 2y ago
    We've only pierced the secrets of matter using particle accelerators, but hopefully one day we'll figure out how middle easterners do bronze...
• ericcumbee 2y ago
  >Since the 1970s, the Avedis Zildjian Co. has operated under the radar in Norwell, Massachusetts. under the radar? maybe its because I'm a former Marching band kid that played the cymbals. but Zildjian is THE brand when it comes to cymbals.
  • wrigby 2y ago
    Right? If you spend time around drummers at all, you almost definitely know the name Zildjian (the same way drummers know the names Fender and Gibson).
    • SamBam 2y ago
      "Operated in Norwell" is the verb phrase that "under the radar" is modifying. It's about where it's based.
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • I_AM_A_SMURF 2y ago
    I think here under the radar means that locals didn't know the factory was there, not that Zildjian is an unknown brand, it even goes on to say > Even in Massachusetts many people have no idea an industrial factory outside of Boston designs, casts, blasts, rolls, hammers, buffs and tests at least a million Zildjian cymbals each year.
• mbloom1915 2y ago
  Zildjian's history and global reach is truly exceptional. I've tried many cymbals over the years but Zildjian has a nailed a specific deep resonating sound others can't compete with. Heres to another 400 years!
• ge96 2y ago
  A buddy of mine is an antique guy and I went to an auction with him one time. I saw a drum set and he said something like "oh yeah that's worth liker $400" only thing he bought was the cymbal.
• h14h 2y ago
  I played percussion in High School and Zildjian is lodged in my brain as the "best" quality cymbals. I have no idea how accurate that is, but it's a testament to their brand recognition just how firmly they grabbed a hold of my impressionable young mind.
  • havefunbesafe 2y ago
    I thought the same and nearly was the purchaser of a Zildjian back tattoo. That would have been a top tier blunder year move.
• xivzgrev 2y ago
  This was fun. Personally I liked sabian more, the cymbals sounded brighter and bolder to me. Zildjians were more dull - maybe the ones I used in school band / drum instructors were so old!
  • havefunbesafe 2y ago
    Ahh nothing like the sound of a heavy wet rag over a 14" Zildjian hi hat. I do agree, and I prefer Paiste for the exact same reasons.
• Gimpei 2y ago
  Looks like he moved to the US only five years before the Armenian Genocide and I'm guessing it was because he could see the writing on the wall. Goes to show that massacring your citizens has an economic cost.
• 3yanlis1bos 2y ago
  Zildjian's original craftsmanship actually lives on in Istanbul. Mehmet Tamdeger, who began apprenticing at age nine under Mikhail Zilcan (grandson of Kerope Zilcan, of K series fame) and master smith Kirkor Kucukyan, continued the traditional techniques from the 1950s K. Zilcan factory in Istanbul. What's fascinating is that Tamdeger and master smith Agop Tomurcuk preserved these methods by founding "Istanbul" cymbals. Initially exporting to the US under "Zildjiler" before switching to "Istanbul" in 1984, each cymbal was personally signed by both masters. After Agop's unexpected death in 1996, Mehmet continued under "Istanbul Mehmet", maintaining the 17th-century hand-crafting methods with the philosophy "Machines don't have ears." The cymbals they make are particularly sought after by jazz drummers for what's known as the "old K sound" - referring to the original K Zildjians made in its place of birth. Here is one for sale: https://soundsanatolian.com/products/istanbul-mehmet-22-mikael-z-ride-sizzle https://soundsanatolian.com/products/istanbul-mehmet-22-mika...
  • DontchaKnowit 2y ago
    That is shockingly inexpensive
    • zild3d 2y ago
      yep drums and cymbals are very expensive. Beginner cymbals are ~$300 for a pack (hi hat, crash, ride). Intermediate/pro cymbals are easily $400-500 a piece https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZP4PK--zildjian-planet-z-4-piece-cymbal-set-14-inch-16-inch-20-inch https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZP4PK--zildjian-plan... https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K0731--zildjian-k-sweet-ride-cymbal-21-inch https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K0731--zildjian-k-sw...
      • DontchaKnowit 2y ago
        I said inexpensive
        • getlawgdon 2y ago
          What's inexpensive about it? Why do you think it should cost more? This is a very typical cost for a single component of an instrument that can get very costly.
• overkill28 2y ago
  > Carrington founded and directs Berklee College of Music’s Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice in Boston. She’s also a Zildjian artist What do you think they study at the Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice ?
  • briandear 2y ago
    Jazz Justice would likely study the injustice of Kenny G selling more records than Miles Davis.
    • jimmydddd 2y ago
      This is the best comment in this post, from a jazz drummer perspective.
  • marmaduke 2y ago
    I didn’t look it up, but at first glance, it reminded me of discussions like this one https://youtu.be/qnT48wO0UL0 https://youtu.be/qnT48wO0UL0
  • pavlov 2y ago
    It’s widely known that the best way to scare off an alt-right chauvinist troll is by playing cymbals and free jazz.
• kopirgan 2y ago
  A lesson for countries. What a loss for Turkey! They lost their Jews, Armenians & so much else. Bizarre that we think of Italy, Japan even Korea for good coffee but rarely Turkey which is where it started.
  • anon291 2y ago
    What? Turkish coffee is a thing
    • tbossanova 2y ago
      Yes, but rarely
  • selcuka 2y ago
    > What a loss for Turkey! Yes, and no. Mikael Zildjian stayed in Istanbul and made cymbals until his nephews asked him (in 1977) to stop making them and exporting to the USA. Today, Mikael's apprentices Mehmet and Oksant are still manufacturing cymbals (under different brands, obviously, as they are not from the same family).
• noisy_boy 2y ago
  I know them from the Zildjian live YouTube channel: https://www.google.com/search?q=zildjian%20live https://www.google.com/search?q=zildjian%20live The top few videos have amazing music (mostly Snarky Puppy and J D Beck)
• userbinator 2y ago
  as a keeper of their closely-guarded 400 year old alloy she doubled down, “The secret part will remain a secret.” Nothing a little mass spectrometry won't reveal... and metallurgy has advanced a lot in 400 years. It's interesting that in the first picture with the cymbal being cut on a lathe, there doesn't seem to be any precision measuring instruments visible. I suppose they've already simplified the process to preset stops and go/no-go gauges.
• jdwithit 2y ago
  Very cool story. Not what I expected to find on HN but glad it was linked! I was born and raised in Massachusetts and know the Zildjian brand, but had absolutely no idea they were based there.
• cjohnson318 2y ago
  I'm more interested in how and why Avedis III decided to immigrate to America, the Armenian Genocide happened only a few years later. Either he saw the writing on the wall, or he picked a very, very lucky time to move a 300 year old business to another continent.
• orliesaurus 2y ago
  literally was in a guitarcenter on the 30th of December and I was staring at the name zildjian on those drums...wondering where the whole brand name came from...and this appeared on HN today - what a small world of coincidences.
• FlyingSnake 2y ago
  The world is truly globalised. Zildjian has a unique place in my childhood due to the legendary drummer Sivamani, who collaborated extensively with AR Rahman. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivamani_(percussionist) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivamani_(percussionist)
• Manheim 2y ago
  I use a mix of cymbals, also Zildjian, and the last years I've moved more to Istanbul cymbals but did not know this part of history and the connection the craft had to the old city. It is not surprising, though. Istanbul has a history as a cultural center since the Roman empire and before, holding its position long after Rome fell. It is one of my favorite cities in the world because of the mix of cultures across crafts and arts, and people - also within music. It's role in the cymbal and drum making history just adds to my impression. Istanbul unfortunately currently is a shadow of what it was, after many years of Erdogan and his followers' efforts to make Turkey less liberal and secular. I do hope history will show that this will turn, and that Istanbul will continue to be a metropol of blended cultures and creativity.
  • cpursley 2y ago
    People on here just can't seem to comment without the political cheap-shots. Believe it or not, you can enjoy a thing/place/etc without "americanizing" it (making everything political). I thought Istanbul was amazingly rich in terms of culture, food, etc as well as fairly liberal and safe. Didn't think twice about who's in charge nor cared. Can't wait to go back.
    • eenokentee 2y ago
      [dead]
    • Manheim 2y ago
      I am not from America, and do not favor Americanizing anything. I enjoy Istanbul, was there last summer actually, and love the city. I just point out what's been happing with the city the last 15 to 20 years, and that this is mostly due to political reasons, connected to the conservative and religious party of Erdogan. You should not mistake a comment made out of love for the city to be a comment of how things are better in the US or trying to make everything political. That is to give me intentions I do not have.
• Aldipower 2y ago
  I've used to play in garage bands almost my whole live as a guitar and bass player. Standing next to the drummer. Zyldjian is definitely the reason I am hearing impaired now! And of course all the bad drummers (but good friends), not able to play dynamically, just loud! :-D Drums are actually made to be able to fill medium sized halls, not so much to be used in a small garage. Drums are the reason why rock bands have to be so loud _still today_. Back in the days loud tube amps were also the reason.. I do not like drums, especially cymbals and snare drums, anymore.. But drum machines are great! :-)
  • Ylpertnodi 2y ago
    Take a look at the drum machine 'scrooge', esp on youtube. It's got me well back into music (as well as vcv rack).
  • iosonofuturista 2y ago
    I feel you! My best friend is a drummer, and so many operational problems could be avoided by having him play an electronic drum or or other non acoustic percussion. But it's really not the same thing, so we have to accommodate.
• ghjfrdghibt 2y ago
  This company is older than America... From my extremely limited searching (Wikipedia) it's almost as old as the state itself.
• tibbydudeza 2y ago
  Reminds me of those Japanese companies that has been around since the founding of modern Japan making uniquely crafted products like a video, I watched of a company making some very expensive black pigment that is rolled by a dude with bare feet.