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Animal domestication is really wild. So we first select for neoteny (playfulness, dependency on caregiver, physical features people like) basically prolonging

by jasdi 2y ago

Animal domestication is really wild. So we first select for neoteny (playfulness, dependency on caregiver, physical features people like) basically prolonging the juvenile state. Then we put them in controlled environments of abundance, were all their needs are met. Which further diminishes need to reach adult state (with traits like aggressiveness to compete for resources). This abundance causes them to mature/breed earlier and reproduce more than in the wild. Basically a population of children that can produce children. Then we want this population of children to live longer.

throw839298 2y ago
> neoteny What domesticated animals were bread for "cuteness"? Cats are mice hunters. Most popular dog breeds were selected for killing and dog fight! That "big smile" is not for laughter, but to crush bones! And many domesticated animals can not even reproduce without human assistance. How they would survive in wild?
- trimethylpurine 2y ago
  Chihuahua.
- blueflow 2y ago
  I think requiring human assistance and inability to survive in the wild are an effect of neoteny.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > What domesticated animals were bread for "cuteness"? Dogs. > Cats are mice hunters Cats blur the line between domestication and taming. > Most popular dog breeds were selected for killing and dog fight One can breed for more than one thing. (Dog fighting as a selection pressure is very modern and very limited.) Dogs literally evolved a muscle to make them more appealing to (and help them communicate with) humans [1]. > many domesticated animals can not even reproduce without human assistance Not an argument against neateny. [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dogs-have-special-muscle-lets-them-make-puppy-dog-eyes-180972440/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dogs-have-special-...
  - graemep 2y ago
    Dog fighting is limited, but most dog breeds have been bred primarily for a specific practical purpose. > Dogs literally evolved a muscle to make them more appealing to (and help them communicate with) humans Not necessarily exactly cuteness. The other explanation suggested is better communication in general - by exposing the whites of their eyes we can see what they are looking at, which is an important cue for humans (we use it between ourselves too) to indicate the direction of attention.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > most dog breeds have been bred primarily for a specific practical purpose Sure. But most of those traits are shallow. Let the breed go stray and many characteristics go away. The neoteny does not. > Not necessarily exactly cuteness The neoteny—large eyes and heads, for example—is precisely cuteness. Not all breeds are equally neotenic. But they’re very much not wolves.
      - graemep 2y ago
        > Sure. But most of those traits are shallow. Let the breed go stray and many characteristics go away. A lot of characteristics seem to be bred in and instinctive - breed specific behaviour occurs without training. Strays do not breed pure so of course breed specific characteristics are lost. > The neoteny—large eyes and heads, for example—is precisely cuteness To an extent yes. The specific trait mentioned in the comment I was replying to was not neotenous. Not all neotonous traits are physically cute.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > breed specific behaviour occurs without training. Strays do not breed pure so of course breed specific characteristics are lost My point is neoteny almost isn’t breed specific. Let strays breed and it’s preserved—stray dogs are cuter than wolves. Wild dogs don’t become wolves. (They also stop being French bulldogs.) > Not all neotonous traits are physically cute Almost all physically-cute traits are neutenous.
- scotty79 2y ago
  > What domesticated animals were bread for "cuteness"? Fairly recent experiments with domestication of foxes show how it might work. What you select for is behavior. Mainly you breed individuals that neither attack humans nor run away from them. Any other response than aggression or fear is ok. In few generations it turns out individuals selected this way retain more and more juvenile traits. I think cats never needed to get domesticated because reacting to humans with neither aggression nor fear is within natural range of perfectly normal behaviors of most individuals of this specific niche feline species that got globalized through its relationship with humans.
scotty79 2y ago
Recently I had an interesting thought that basically people did almost the same to themselves spontaneously through culture. Which might influence various aspects of human behavior, like social interactions in general, cooperation and means of competition, mate selection. We might have genetic changes that are not maladaptive only in the culture that introduced them. As technology forces culture to evolve it might turn out that huge swaths of human species have their evolutionary fitness suddenly reduced.
- b112 2y ago
  Visually humans have neotenistic characteristics compared to other primates, so this is quite plausible.
  - xapata 2y ago
    And mentally. We never stop playing. Note the popularity of memes about "adulting".
    - scotty79 2y ago
      What's interesting is that rigid culture that forced us to do adult behaviors despite retaining juvenile traits, now when it's getting lifted and replaced with freedom to do whatever you please might leave many individuals maladapted from the evolutionary standpoint to prolonging their genetic line. Which I think is perfectly fine. New generations that are better adapted to the culture of hi-tech freedom will arise from the few that currently accidentally already do the evolutionarily correct thing.
      - skissane 2y ago
        > New generations that are better adapted to the culture of hi-tech freedom will arise from the few that currently accidentally already do the evolutionarily correct thing. That's one possibility. Another is subcultures which prioritise reproduction over personal freedom will end up demographically dominant in the long-run. Look for example at Kiryas Joel, New York, and similar ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, whose growth shows no signs of slowing down in the foreseeable future. Of course, exponential growth can't last forever, but nobody knows what exactly the limit is and when it will be reached – it might not be reached until they've become a very substantial percentage of the population, maybe even the majority.
mclau156 2y ago
"Animal domestication is really wild"
Beijinger 2y ago
Dogs domesticated us. Wolves are hunted but dogs a fed, given shelter, love and access to medical care.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  You'll let me know the next time you'll have to require the permission of your dog to pee, or when it can trigger surgery to cut your balls or put you down.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    That humans are dominant doesn't preclude us having co-evolved.
    - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
      Co-evolved is a very different word than domesticated.

by jasdi 2y ago

throw839298 2y ago

> neoteny What domesticated animals were bread for "cuteness"? Cats are mice hunters. Most popular dog breeds were selected for killing and dog fight! That "big smile" is not for laughter, but to crush bones! And many domesticated animals can not even reproduce without human assistance. How they would survive in wild?

trimethylpurine 2y ago
Chihuahua.
blueflow 2y ago
I think requiring human assistance and inability to survive in the wild are an effect of neoteny.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> What domesticated animals were bread for "cuteness"? Dogs. > Cats are mice hunters Cats blur the line between domestication and taming. > Most popular dog breeds were selected for killing and dog fight One can breed for more than one thing. (Dog fighting as a selection pressure is very modern and very limited.) Dogs literally evolved a muscle to make them more appealing to (and help them communicate with) humans [1]. > many domesticated animals can not even reproduce without human assistance Not an argument against neateny. [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dogs-have-special-muscle-lets-them-make-puppy-dog-eyes-180972440/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dogs-have-special-...
- graemep 2y ago
  Dog fighting is limited, but most dog breeds have been bred primarily for a specific practical purpose. > Dogs literally evolved a muscle to make them more appealing to (and help them communicate with) humans Not necessarily exactly cuteness. The other explanation suggested is better communication in general - by exposing the whites of their eyes we can see what they are looking at, which is an important cue for humans (we use it between ourselves too) to indicate the direction of attention.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > most dog breeds have been bred primarily for a specific practical purpose Sure. But most of those traits are shallow. Let the breed go stray and many characteristics go away. The neoteny does not. > Not necessarily exactly cuteness The neoteny—large eyes and heads, for example—is precisely cuteness. Not all breeds are equally neotenic. But they’re very much not wolves.
    - graemep 2y ago
      > Sure. But most of those traits are shallow. Let the breed go stray and many characteristics go away. A lot of characteristics seem to be bred in and instinctive - breed specific behaviour occurs without training. Strays do not breed pure so of course breed specific characteristics are lost. > The neoteny—large eyes and heads, for example—is precisely cuteness To an extent yes. The specific trait mentioned in the comment I was replying to was not neotenous. Not all neotonous traits are physically cute.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > breed specific behaviour occurs without training. Strays do not breed pure so of course breed specific characteristics are lost My point is neoteny almost isn’t breed specific. Let strays breed and it’s preserved—stray dogs are cuter than wolves. Wild dogs don’t become wolves. (They also stop being French bulldogs.) > Not all neotonous traits are physically cute Almost all physically-cute traits are neutenous.
scotty79 2y ago
> What domesticated animals were bread for "cuteness"? Fairly recent experiments with domestication of foxes show how it might work. What you select for is behavior. Mainly you breed individuals that neither attack humans nor run away from them. Any other response than aggression or fear is ok. In few generations it turns out individuals selected this way retain more and more juvenile traits. I think cats never needed to get domesticated because reacting to humans with neither aggression nor fear is within natural range of perfectly normal behaviors of most individuals of this specific niche feline species that got globalized through its relationship with humans.

scotty79 2y ago

Recently I had an interesting thought that basically people did almost the same to themselves spontaneously through culture. Which might influence various aspects of human behavior, like social interactions in general, cooperation and means of competition, mate selection. We might have genetic changes that are not maladaptive only in the culture that introduced them. As technology forces culture to evolve it might turn out that huge swaths of human species have their evolutionary fitness suddenly reduced.

b112 2y ago
Visually humans have neotenistic characteristics compared to other primates, so this is quite plausible.
- xapata 2y ago
  And mentally. We never stop playing. Note the popularity of memes about "adulting".
  - scotty79 2y ago
    What's interesting is that rigid culture that forced us to do adult behaviors despite retaining juvenile traits, now when it's getting lifted and replaced with freedom to do whatever you please might leave many individuals maladapted from the evolutionary standpoint to prolonging their genetic line. Which I think is perfectly fine. New generations that are better adapted to the culture of hi-tech freedom will arise from the few that currently accidentally already do the evolutionarily correct thing.
    - skissane 2y ago
      > New generations that are better adapted to the culture of hi-tech freedom will arise from the few that currently accidentally already do the evolutionarily correct thing. That's one possibility. Another is subcultures which prioritise reproduction over personal freedom will end up demographically dominant in the long-run. Look for example at Kiryas Joel, New York, and similar ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, whose growth shows no signs of slowing down in the foreseeable future. Of course, exponential growth can't last forever, but nobody knows what exactly the limit is and when it will be reached – it might not be reached until they've become a very substantial percentage of the population, maybe even the majority.

mclau156 2y ago

"Animal domestication is really wild"

Beijinger 2y ago

Dogs domesticated us. Wolves are hunted but dogs a fed, given shelter, love and access to medical care.

BiteCode_dev 2y ago
You'll let me know the next time you'll have to require the permission of your dog to pee, or when it can trigger surgery to cut your balls or put you down.
- ben_w 2y ago
  That humans are dominant doesn't preclude us having co-evolved.
  - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
    Co-evolved is a very different word than domesticated.