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> That’s where Tesla fails What do you mean by this? I get more support from Tesla than any other car I’ve had. Bug fixes, new features, all OTA. In terms of

> That’s where Tesla fails What do you mean by this? I get more support from Tesla than any other car I’ve had. Bug fixes, new features, all OTA. In terms of service infrastructure, I can open a ticket from my phone, chat with a service person and have an appointment booked. They will even send someone out to the car to fix any issues. I had my window realigned and never even interacted physically with the person.

prmoustache 2y ago
> never even interacted physically with the person. Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Not an owner myself but I get service and experience might differ greatly depending on country.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  > Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Those people would have the choice of driving to the garage and waiting if they wished to. I chose for the home visit then cycled to work and came home to a fixed car.
HWR_14 2y ago
I have no idea why I would want an OTA patch to my car. But I also don't know why I would want any apps or other complex software in my car.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  You have complex software in your car regardless if it was purchased anytime in the last couple decades. The difference is whether you receive updates when it's brought in to a service center, or OTA. I personally prefer the former, even as someone whose job is simplified by the latter.
  - HWR_14 2y ago
    I've never had or wanted to update the software on my car.
    - AlotOfReading 2y ago
      Has your car never had a recall, or are you simply unaware of any software recalls that have been done to it? Recalls are often done with software updates these days, so if you're not applying updates you're deliberately choosing not to apply safety fixes.
      - HWR_14 2y ago
        Last year there were five major recalls. One was a software fix for backup cameras not always working. Two were Tesla software issues. Two were non-Tesla hardware issues. I think if I avoid a Tesla, I don't have to worry about software updates for a while.
        AlotOfReading 2y ago
        There were dozens of recalls in December alone. Every manufacturer has software bugs that need recalls, or fixes for hardware issues that involve software workarounds.
    - more_corn 2y ago
      You certainly want to update the software on your car if it contains critical bugs. Pretending there’s no software in your car doesn’t make it so.
      - HWR_14 2y ago
        My car doesn't have critical bugs. And instead of making software more complicated, it should be made simple to reduce the chance of a critical bug to zero.
        2y ago
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  > Each vehicle on the road contains around a hundred microcontrollers (MCUs) to operate lower-level functions, such as electric seats, transmission changes, and range reporting. https://www.arm.com/markets/automotive/zonal-microcontroller#:~:text=Each%20vehicle%20on%20the%20road,transmission%20changes%2C%20and%20range%20reporting https://www.arm.com/markets/automotive/zonal-microcontroller.... The software that runs on these microcontrollers is not bug free. At the very minimum, having an OTA update fix a bug reduces the number of journeys with the bug by one vs driving to the service centre and wasting your own time. Also, I realise it’s a common hn trope to want a technology-free car, but having a coffee at lunch time and watching Netflix on the big screen is one of the few times I get to myself in a post-child world. All of the infotainment technology is great to be honest, from the charging experience to the Apple Music integration.
  - HWR_14 2y ago
    I understand the value of a large screen. I don't understand the value of it not being a dumb monitor. My cellphone can play Netflix on the screen just fine, thank you. And it is far more likely to have interesting non-Netflix entertainment options as well. And yes, code on microcontrollers can have bugs. But bugs mostly occur with advanced features or having those features hook into more basic ones.
    - thebruce87m 2y ago
      The general public can’t handle non vertically integrated things. My mum will never, ever know how to switch inputs on a display despite growing up with the first TVs and using one every day. My wife can just about do it. Also it’s not just Netflix, it has other integrations and a full browser. > And yes, code on microcontrollers can have bugs. But bugs mostly occur with advanced features or having those features hook into more basic ones. It’s much worse than you think. Legacy car makers treat each micro only as an item on a BOM, software and all. It’s getting better now, but you would have a vendor for each of those microcontrollers with no coordination between any of them. The path from bug fix to rollout was non existent for a lot of them. Not to mention the microcontrollers themselves are probed / final tested using VBA in a piece of “software” built on top of Microsoft Excel. No, I’m not joking. I’m also still getting extra safety features added to my Tesla. I now get cross traffic alerts when reversing.
srockets 2y ago
What about hardware? If a part breaks, how long do you have to wait for a new one? (Insurance costs for Teslas are extremely high because parts take so long to acquire). How often does it break? (Tesla notoriously don’t use automotive quality parts, which reduces costs, and increases MTTF). And who can fix it? Can you get service manuals for it? Not every car is a Hilux, notorious for being extremely fixable, but every serious car manufacturer had a whole infrastructure for serious after sales support. Tesla is still not there, and by choice. That was never a priority for them.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  Never had a part break. I had a creaking noise from the boot trims and they were replaced quickly in a remote visit. Waiting for parts seems to be an industry wide problem at the moment, and my anecdotal evidence supports this with many people I know waiting for parts for their non-EV vehicles. My colleague was without his Ford Puma for 2 weeks due to waiting on a part.

prmoustache 2y ago

> never even interacted physically with the person. Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Not an owner myself but I get service and experience might differ greatly depending on country.

thebruce87m 2y ago
> Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Those people would have the choice of driving to the garage and waiting if they wished to. I chose for the home visit then cycled to work and came home to a fixed car.

HWR_14 2y ago

I have no idea why I would want an OTA patch to my car. But I also don't know why I would want any apps or other complex software in my car.

AlotOfReading 2y ago
You have complex software in your car regardless if it was purchased anytime in the last couple decades. The difference is whether you receive updates when it's brought in to a service center, or OTA. I personally prefer the former, even as someone whose job is simplified by the latter.
- HWR_14 2y ago
  I've never had or wanted to update the software on my car.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    Has your car never had a recall, or are you simply unaware of any software recalls that have been done to it? Recalls are often done with software updates these days, so if you're not applying updates you're deliberately choosing not to apply safety fixes.
    - HWR_14 2y ago
      Last year there were five major recalls. One was a software fix for backup cameras not always working. Two were Tesla software issues. Two were non-Tesla hardware issues. I think if I avoid a Tesla, I don't have to worry about software updates for a while.
      - AlotOfReading 2y ago
        There were dozens of recalls in December alone. Every manufacturer has software bugs that need recalls, or fixes for hardware issues that involve software workarounds.
  - more_corn 2y ago
    You certainly want to update the software on your car if it contains critical bugs. Pretending there’s no software in your car doesn’t make it so.
    - HWR_14 2y ago
      My car doesn't have critical bugs. And instead of making software more complicated, it should be made simple to reduce the chance of a critical bug to zero.
      - 2y ago
thebruce87m 2y ago
> Each vehicle on the road contains around a hundred microcontrollers (MCUs) to operate lower-level functions, such as electric seats, transmission changes, and range reporting. https://www.arm.com/markets/automotive/zonal-microcontroller#:~:text=Each%20vehicle%20on%20the%20road,transmission%20changes%2C%20and%20range%20reporting https://www.arm.com/markets/automotive/zonal-microcontroller.... The software that runs on these microcontrollers is not bug free. At the very minimum, having an OTA update fix a bug reduces the number of journeys with the bug by one vs driving to the service centre and wasting your own time. Also, I realise it’s a common hn trope to want a technology-free car, but having a coffee at lunch time and watching Netflix on the big screen is one of the few times I get to myself in a post-child world. All of the infotainment technology is great to be honest, from the charging experience to the Apple Music integration.
- HWR_14 2y ago
  I understand the value of a large screen. I don't understand the value of it not being a dumb monitor. My cellphone can play Netflix on the screen just fine, thank you. And it is far more likely to have interesting non-Netflix entertainment options as well. And yes, code on microcontrollers can have bugs. But bugs mostly occur with advanced features or having those features hook into more basic ones.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    The general public can’t handle non vertically integrated things. My mum will never, ever know how to switch inputs on a display despite growing up with the first TVs and using one every day. My wife can just about do it. Also it’s not just Netflix, it has other integrations and a full browser. > And yes, code on microcontrollers can have bugs. But bugs mostly occur with advanced features or having those features hook into more basic ones. It’s much worse than you think. Legacy car makers treat each micro only as an item on a BOM, software and all. It’s getting better now, but you would have a vendor for each of those microcontrollers with no coordination between any of them. The path from bug fix to rollout was non existent for a lot of them. Not to mention the microcontrollers themselves are probed / final tested using VBA in a piece of “software” built on top of Microsoft Excel. No, I’m not joking. I’m also still getting extra safety features added to my Tesla. I now get cross traffic alerts when reversing.

srockets 2y ago

What about hardware? If a part breaks, how long do you have to wait for a new one? (Insurance costs for Teslas are extremely high because parts take so long to acquire). How often does it break? (Tesla notoriously don’t use automotive quality parts, which reduces costs, and increases MTTF). And who can fix it? Can you get service manuals for it? Not every car is a Hilux, notorious for being extremely fixable, but every serious car manufacturer had a whole infrastructure for serious after sales support. Tesla is still not there, and by choice. That was never a priority for them.

thebruce87m 2y ago
Never had a part break. I had a creaking noise from the boot trims and they were replaced quickly in a remote visit. Waiting for parts seems to be an industry wide problem at the moment, and my anecdotal evidence supports this with many people I know waiting for parts for their non-EV vehicles. My colleague was without his Ford Puma for 2 weeks due to waiting on a part.