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These sustained aggressive and systematic attacks by China demand a serious response, including massive financial and even kinetic responses. Allowing it to ha

by toss1 2y ago

These sustained aggressive and systematic attacks by China demand a serious response, including massive financial and even kinetic responses. Allowing it to happen with mere protests of concern is allowing it to happen. I get not wanting to escalate, but lack of response only invites greater escalation. The cost of stopping this only increases with each round of attacks.

kinghajj 2y ago
Kinetic? Which targets do you have in mind that wouldn't start an escalatory spiral between two nuclear-armed nations? _Maybe_ some of the resource extraction infrastructure the PRC has set up in foreign nations. You also have to consider the asymmetric nature of this information. It's quite plausible that the US has its "cyber-fangs" embedded in key parts of PRC infrastructure, but how forthcoming do you think the PRC would be about that?
- toss1 2y ago
  >>Kinetic? Notice I put sanctions first, but considering we hardly go a week without seeing more massive CCP actions from cyberattacks to converting Chinese expats to spies, it needs to be taken seriously. We could start with, every such attack and another major Chinese conglomerate is banned from US business. Coordinate with EU also to increase effects. >>Which targets? I'm not an expert in that field, but I'm sure there are many who could devise an appropriate target list. The targets you suggest are not bad, I'd certainly prioritize equipment and avoiding any human casualties, so maybe going after their power feeds and backpu to their research and data centers would be a start... The key is a rapid response that they feel, hard.
  - consumer451 2y ago
    We are so way too late. ByteDance owns TikTok, part of Reddit, and many games. Also, the CCP runs almost the entire manufacturing sector. Not just electronics, but ships. The Xiaomi SU7 is .1 revs away from Tesla & Porsche. The choice to sell ourselves to the CCP, for short term profit, was made decades ago by the consulting class. The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them I hate the person being quoted above with all my might, but that does not make the prediction any less true. My last hope was that the corruption of the CCP was worse than the corruption of the USA. Given the latest election, I am not so sure about that anymore. Has your employer contributed to POTUS's inauguration, if not, please ask them to do so or else you might be unemployed! This is the CCP-level corruption bullshit. WTF.
    - toss1 2y ago
      >>We are so way too late. Too true, sadly. And that quote is spot-on. The thing is, there is no one better at playing catch-up than the USA; e.g., in 1939 just before WWII, the US had a total of 39 tanks in it's arsenal. The big question is, whether the incoming administration, which looks in every way like it is already owned by the authoritarian powers and aspires to join them, will fight them, or if we'll be another 4 years down before anything happens. The incoming admin is already fighting to keep TikTok in the US. Insane.
    - toss1 2y ago
      Nice, looks like a CCP-promoting downvoting brigade just showed up. All the posts critical of CCP and suggesting a response to their assault just lost a whole bunch of voted Great confirmation that this is important. Let the downvotes begin.
WheelsAtLarge 2y ago
Kinetic responses do nothing long-term. We just get deeper into a hole of response and counter-response to the point of war. We need to start negotiating a long-term treaty that defines what's allowable and what's not. Whether we like it or not, China is a major player in cyber espionage, and we need to limit further conflict. This is a political issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
- toss1 2y ago
  When you are dealing with an aggressive authoritarian regime like CCP or Putin, agreements mean nothing. They all follow the algorithm described by Vladimir Lenin: — “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw” They do this relentlessly until they face consequences too costly to continue. Negotiations and agreements are simply, and accurately seen as "I won, I can continue making bigger offenses, and the opponent will do nothing (they won't violate the agreement while I do)" . I mentioned sanctions first because they can often be more effective than kinetic and less escalatory. That does not mean they should be off the table, particularly kinetic responses with plausible deniability. But no, this is not a political issue. A political issue would be dumping goods onto the market at sub-production-cost or undercutting us on a deal with an ally. This is a violation of territory just as if they'd broken the locks on the buildings to come in and sit down at the keyboards.
  - panarky 2y ago
    The US could announce that all Treasury securities held by China will not be redeemed and are now worthless.
    - anikom15 2y ago
      And tank its own economy in the process?
      - panarky 2y ago
        It's seldom possible to impose severe consequences on your adversary without suffering some pain yourself. It's as true for economic warfare as it is for kinetic conflict.
hulitu 2y ago
> These sustained aggressive and systematic attacks by China demand a serious response, including massive financial and even kinetic responses. Yes, like hiring sysadmins and not doing "checklist security". But, i guess, when Cisco has a backdoor in every product, the fight is lost.

by toss1 2y ago

kinghajj 2y ago

Kinetic? Which targets do you have in mind that wouldn't start an escalatory spiral between two nuclear-armed nations? _Maybe_ some of the resource extraction infrastructure the PRC has set up in foreign nations. You also have to consider the asymmetric nature of this information. It's quite plausible that the US has its "cyber-fangs" embedded in key parts of PRC infrastructure, but how forthcoming do you think the PRC would be about that?

toss1 2y ago
>>Kinetic? Notice I put sanctions first, but considering we hardly go a week without seeing more massive CCP actions from cyberattacks to converting Chinese expats to spies, it needs to be taken seriously. We could start with, every such attack and another major Chinese conglomerate is banned from US business. Coordinate with EU also to increase effects. >>Which targets? I'm not an expert in that field, but I'm sure there are many who could devise an appropriate target list. The targets you suggest are not bad, I'd certainly prioritize equipment and avoiding any human casualties, so maybe going after their power feeds and backpu to their research and data centers would be a start... The key is a rapid response that they feel, hard.
- consumer451 2y ago
  We are so way too late. ByteDance owns TikTok, part of Reddit, and many games. Also, the CCP runs almost the entire manufacturing sector. Not just electronics, but ships. The Xiaomi SU7 is .1 revs away from Tesla & Porsche. The choice to sell ourselves to the CCP, for short term profit, was made decades ago by the consulting class. The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them I hate the person being quoted above with all my might, but that does not make the prediction any less true. My last hope was that the corruption of the CCP was worse than the corruption of the USA. Given the latest election, I am not so sure about that anymore. Has your employer contributed to POTUS's inauguration, if not, please ask them to do so or else you might be unemployed! This is the CCP-level corruption bullshit. WTF.
  - toss1 2y ago
    >>We are so way too late. Too true, sadly. And that quote is spot-on. The thing is, there is no one better at playing catch-up than the USA; e.g., in 1939 just before WWII, the US had a total of 39 tanks in it's arsenal. The big question is, whether the incoming administration, which looks in every way like it is already owned by the authoritarian powers and aspires to join them, will fight them, or if we'll be another 4 years down before anything happens. The incoming admin is already fighting to keep TikTok in the US. Insane.
  - toss1 2y ago
    Nice, looks like a CCP-promoting downvoting brigade just showed up. All the posts critical of CCP and suggesting a response to their assault just lost a whole bunch of voted Great confirmation that this is important. Let the downvotes begin.

WheelsAtLarge 2y ago

Kinetic responses do nothing long-term. We just get deeper into a hole of response and counter-response to the point of war. We need to start negotiating a long-term treaty that defines what's allowable and what's not. Whether we like it or not, China is a major player in cyber espionage, and we need to limit further conflict. This is a political issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly.

toss1 2y ago
When you are dealing with an aggressive authoritarian regime like CCP or Putin, agreements mean nothing. They all follow the algorithm described by Vladimir Lenin: — “You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw” They do this relentlessly until they face consequences too costly to continue. Negotiations and agreements are simply, and accurately seen as "I won, I can continue making bigger offenses, and the opponent will do nothing (they won't violate the agreement while I do)" . I mentioned sanctions first because they can often be more effective than kinetic and less escalatory. That does not mean they should be off the table, particularly kinetic responses with plausible deniability. But no, this is not a political issue. A political issue would be dumping goods onto the market at sub-production-cost or undercutting us on a deal with an ally. This is a violation of territory just as if they'd broken the locks on the buildings to come in and sit down at the keyboards.
- panarky 2y ago
  The US could announce that all Treasury securities held by China will not be redeemed and are now worthless.
  - anikom15 2y ago
    And tank its own economy in the process?
    - panarky 2y ago
      It's seldom possible to impose severe consequences on your adversary without suffering some pain yourself. It's as true for economic warfare as it is for kinetic conflict.

hulitu 2y ago

> These sustained aggressive and systematic attacks by China demand a serious response, including massive financial and even kinetic responses. Yes, like hiring sysadmins and not doing "checklist security". But, i guess, when Cisco has a backdoor in every product, the fight is lost.