5 ms·

I think it all comes down to ownership. If I own a piece of land then by virtue of that ownership I get an almost unlimited veto on what is allowed to be done

I think it all comes down to ownership. If I own a piece of land then by virtue of that ownership I get an almost unlimited veto on what is allowed to be done to that piece of land. So if I own a piece of land then I have a right to forbid pollution on it. If a piece of land is owned by the state then in some sense all state residents have some say in how it is used. They have the right to petition the government (lobby, etc), and I think they should have a right to determine, through the representative government process, what happens to that land. That doesn't mean that each individual person gets their own veto, but that the voters of the state have a right to weigh in on how a piece of land is being used and have the right to elect politicians or approve ballot measures expressing their intent.

tptacek 2y ago
Yes, but the issue in the story is the belief of some residents that they have a procedurally enforceable right to prevent water pollution. What could that even mean? We have a pretty standard mental image of "water pollution" (most of us are thinking of a plume of black fluid spreading through a lake) but all sorts of things are polluting, including organic agriculture. And, like, it's obviously not the case that the counter- right exists, either; you don't have a right to utilize public resources. There's a balance of competing equities, and we have a whole system of government, with a legislature to do fact-finding and establish rules, an executive to do enforcement, and a judiciary to sanity-check the rules and make sure they're enforced consistently. It works... pretty badly, but so does every other system you can imagine. To claim a "right" in the sense meant by the petitioners in the article is to say that there is a rule that exists above most of that system of governance that gives the judiciary the power to overrule all elected authority in the name of preserving clean water. No? Which water is clean and which isn't is a pretty basic function of government.
- danudey 2y ago
  I think it is reasonable to assert that the health and survival of both human populations and the natural ecosystem is of critical importance to human society. Therefore, it seems easy to argue that making a water system uninhabitable and causing the collapse of communities or ecosystems should be prevented. Whether the pollution in question is in the form of toxic heavy metals, forever chemicals, etc., or just excessive farm runoff that causes algal blooms and kills marine life (or anything else that consumes the water), that seems like the line to draw. If you're making a water system incapable of sustaining life, then... don't.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Depends on the circumstances. And, maybe you're right more generally. Maybe the balance of equities will be such that materially compromising the viability of any waterway is proscribed. But a political process works that out, not a natural right.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  > It works... pretty badly, but so does every other system you can imagine. That's not true. There's been some great work in the area of 'the tragedy of the commons' by Elinor Ostrom, and others, which shows that not only is it possible to protect the commons without top-down regulation, but it's also quite feasible.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Ok, but this doesn't matter to my argument, does it?
    - mandmandam 2y ago
      If it doesn't matter to your argument, why did you bring it up in the first place? Why would you claim there was no functional alternative, then say it doesn't matter when shown one? The idea that principles for wisely and sustainably managing a commons would have no connection to regulating against water pollution is bizarre to me. I wouldn't know where to start if you don't see how those overlap. > What could that even mean? Read some Ostrom and find out, maybe?
      - tptacek 2y ago
        I did not claim there was no functional alternative.
        mandmandam 2y ago
        You claimed that 'every other system you can imagine works pretty badly'. As in, they don't function well. This level of pedantry might serve you well in some areas of life; but here, now, what are you accomplishing? Why not focus on the joyous fact that there not only is there huge room for improvement in this area, but people have in fact already done a huge amount of the groundwork?
        tptacek 2y ago
chongli 2y ago
But do you own a river that passes through your land? If not then what is your responsibility for the river? Do you need to preserve the water in exactly the same condition as it entered your property or not? Similarly, what are your rights as far as the river water that enters your land? Must it be pristine or could it be polluted?
- rbanffy 2y ago
  If they own the water while it is in their property, it means they cease to own it the moment it gets out of the property. Should they be responsible to deliver it to the next owner in the same state they got it?
  - chongli 2y ago
    That's just restating one of the questions I previously asked.
- eesmith 2y ago
  Water rights law is very well established, with several different viewpoints. The one I'm most familiar with is the prior appropriation doctrine used in the western US, specifically, New Mexico. Available water belongs to the public, not landowner. However, water use rights are assignable. The right to use water goes first to the person with the oldest claim (the "senior appropriator"). You might have no claim to water running through your land, or as a junior appropriator only get access during wet years. You may not block a senior appropriator from being able to make their appropriated beneficial use of that water. As regarding pristine or pollution, quoting the NM constitution, 'The protection of the state's beautiful and healthful environment is hereby declared to be of fundamental importance to the public interest, health, safety and the general welfare. The legislature shall provide for control of pollution and control of despoilment of the air, water and other natural resources of this state, consistent with the use and development of these resources for the maximum benefit of the people.' I'm not a water rights lawyer. Florida water law is very different from New Mexico. I do not know if the NM legislature has passed laws allowing cities to pass stricter pollution laws.
mfer 2y ago
They do have a right through representative government. The powers one level of government doesn’t take trickle down to the next. Since the state level took those powers, the local level cannot. The representative government processes needs to happen at the state level in Florida.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Not really, you don't. Because you can't control the wind. If pollution blows in from china onto the land, how exactly can you enforce your right?
- rbanffy 2y ago
  You can petition China using the various international forums available.
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    Okay, and if a meteor filled with radioactive substances crashes into your land, where pollution is forbidden?
    - piva00 2y ago
      Acts of nature are obviously not attributable, the same with a volcano eruption. If it's caused by humans attribution is possible.
      - IncreasePosts 2y ago
        Okay, so how far do your rights extend? If you have a right to no pollution on your land, how far can the nearest road be built?
        piva00 2y ago
        I believe moving the goalposts from "water pollution" to "no pollution on land" isn't helping anything on the discussion, just makes it murkier. The right to no water pollution comes from a moving resource, water passes by a property and goes to another, land doesn't move and hence could have less strict rules.
giantg2 2y ago
I generally agree with what you are saying. "If I own a piece of land then by virtue of that ownership I get an almost unlimited veto on what is allowed to be done to that piece of land." However, this is the way people wished it worked. Due to zoning, eminent domain, and other laws, there is a lot that can be forced on land owners. Then we can even get into deed restrictions and easements.
- tuna74 2y ago
  Eminent domain means that the state/nation/county takes the land with some kind of compensation to the previous land owner.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    Yeah...
eesmith 2y ago
"If I own a piece of land then by virtue of that ownership I get an almost unlimited veto on what is allowed to be done to that piece of land." That belief is very culturally dependent. For example, in "freedom to roam" countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam), you as a landowner do not have the blanket right to prevent people from walking through your land, from picking berries on your land, nor from camping on your land. In California, the beach below the high-water mark is a public right of way and you as landowner may not prevent people from using is, nor block off paths people use to exercise that right. In the United States, eminent domain means that no landowner has an unlimited veto. Since your antecedent is not correct, your logical argument cannot be used to assess the validity of your conclusion.
hindsightbias 2y ago
Air and water are fluid. They move, so you can't veto what comes and goes. Soil, you could make an argument for.

tptacek 2y ago

Yes, but the issue in the story is the belief of some residents that they have a procedurally enforceable right to prevent water pollution. What could that even mean? We have a pretty standard mental image of "water pollution" (most of us are thinking of a plume of black fluid spreading through a lake) but all sorts of things are polluting, including organic agriculture. And, like, it's obviously not the case that the counter- right exists, either; you don't have a right to utilize public resources. There's a balance of competing equities, and we have a whole system of government, with a legislature to do fact-finding and establish rules, an executive to do enforcement, and a judiciary to sanity-check the rules and make sure they're enforced consistently. It works... pretty badly, but so does every other system you can imagine. To claim a "right" in the sense meant by the petitioners in the article is to say that there is a rule that exists above most of that system of governance that gives the judiciary the power to overrule all elected authority in the name of preserving clean water. No? Which water is clean and which isn't is a pretty basic function of government.

danudey 2y ago
I think it is reasonable to assert that the health and survival of both human populations and the natural ecosystem is of critical importance to human society. Therefore, it seems easy to argue that making a water system uninhabitable and causing the collapse of communities or ecosystems should be prevented. Whether the pollution in question is in the form of toxic heavy metals, forever chemicals, etc., or just excessive farm runoff that causes algal blooms and kills marine life (or anything else that consumes the water), that seems like the line to draw. If you're making a water system incapable of sustaining life, then... don't.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Depends on the circumstances. And, maybe you're right more generally. Maybe the balance of equities will be such that materially compromising the viability of any waterway is proscribed. But a political process works that out, not a natural right.
mandmandam 2y ago
> It works... pretty badly, but so does every other system you can imagine. That's not true. There's been some great work in the area of 'the tragedy of the commons' by Elinor Ostrom, and others, which shows that not only is it possible to protect the commons without top-down regulation, but it's also quite feasible.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Ok, but this doesn't matter to my argument, does it?
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    If it doesn't matter to your argument, why did you bring it up in the first place? Why would you claim there was no functional alternative, then say it doesn't matter when shown one? The idea that principles for wisely and sustainably managing a commons would have no connection to regulating against water pollution is bizarre to me. I wouldn't know where to start if you don't see how those overlap. > What could that even mean? Read some Ostrom and find out, maybe?
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I did not claim there was no functional alternative.
      - mandmandam 2y ago
        You claimed that 'every other system you can imagine works pretty badly'. As in, they don't function well. This level of pedantry might serve you well in some areas of life; but here, now, what are you accomplishing? Why not focus on the joyous fact that there not only is there huge room for improvement in this area, but people have in fact already done a huge amount of the groundwork?
        tptacek 2y ago

chongli 2y ago

But do you own a river that passes through your land? If not then what is your responsibility for the river? Do you need to preserve the water in exactly the same condition as it entered your property or not? Similarly, what are your rights as far as the river water that enters your land? Must it be pristine or could it be polluted?

rbanffy 2y ago
If they own the water while it is in their property, it means they cease to own it the moment it gets out of the property. Should they be responsible to deliver it to the next owner in the same state they got it?
- chongli 2y ago
  That's just restating one of the questions I previously asked.
eesmith 2y ago
Water rights law is very well established, with several different viewpoints. The one I'm most familiar with is the prior appropriation doctrine used in the western US, specifically, New Mexico. Available water belongs to the public, not landowner. However, water use rights are assignable. The right to use water goes first to the person with the oldest claim (the "senior appropriator"). You might have no claim to water running through your land, or as a junior appropriator only get access during wet years. You may not block a senior appropriator from being able to make their appropriated beneficial use of that water. As regarding pristine or pollution, quoting the NM constitution, 'The protection of the state's beautiful and healthful environment is hereby declared to be of fundamental importance to the public interest, health, safety and the general welfare. The legislature shall provide for control of pollution and control of despoilment of the air, water and other natural resources of this state, consistent with the use and development of these resources for the maximum benefit of the people.' I'm not a water rights lawyer. Florida water law is very different from New Mexico. I do not know if the NM legislature has passed laws allowing cities to pass stricter pollution laws.

mfer 2y ago

They do have a right through representative government. The powers one level of government doesn’t take trickle down to the next. Since the state level took those powers, the local level cannot. The representative government processes needs to happen at the state level in Florida.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

Not really, you don't. Because you can't control the wind. If pollution blows in from china onto the land, how exactly can you enforce your right?

rbanffy 2y ago
You can petition China using the various international forums available.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Okay, and if a meteor filled with radioactive substances crashes into your land, where pollution is forbidden?
  - piva00 2y ago
    Acts of nature are obviously not attributable, the same with a volcano eruption. If it's caused by humans attribution is possible.
    - IncreasePosts 2y ago
      Okay, so how far do your rights extend? If you have a right to no pollution on your land, how far can the nearest road be built?
      - piva00 2y ago
        I believe moving the goalposts from "water pollution" to "no pollution on land" isn't helping anything on the discussion, just makes it murkier. The right to no water pollution comes from a moving resource, water passes by a property and goes to another, land doesn't move and hence could have less strict rules.

giantg2 2y ago

I generally agree with what you are saying. "If I own a piece of land then by virtue of that ownership I get an almost unlimited veto on what is allowed to be done to that piece of land." However, this is the way people wished it worked. Due to zoning, eminent domain, and other laws, there is a lot that can be forced on land owners. Then we can even get into deed restrictions and easements.

tuna74 2y ago
Eminent domain means that the state/nation/county takes the land with some kind of compensation to the previous land owner.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Yeah...

eesmith 2y ago

"If I own a piece of land then by virtue of that ownership I get an almost unlimited veto on what is allowed to be done to that piece of land." That belief is very culturally dependent. For example, in "freedom to roam" countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam), you as a landowner do not have the blanket right to prevent people from walking through your land, from picking berries on your land, nor from camping on your land. In California, the beach below the high-water mark is a public right of way and you as landowner may not prevent people from using is, nor block off paths people use to exercise that right. In the United States, eminent domain means that no landowner has an unlimited veto. Since your antecedent is not correct, your logical argument cannot be used to assess the validity of your conclusion.

hindsightbias 2y ago

Air and water are fluid. They move, so you can't veto what comes and goes. Soil, you could make an argument for.