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> People are becoming increasingly neurotic and fragile, and coupled with that we are increasingly unable to fluidly deal with differences this creates as they

> People are becoming increasingly neurotic and fragile, and coupled with that we are increasingly unable to fluidly deal with differences this creates as they arise. Another way to interpret this would be that people are becoming increasingly comfortable with telling people they're not comfortable with something, and leaving when others at the table are refusing to take the feelings of others into consideration. > We're talking about playing a boardgame with friends, do we really need to have a trigger-warning session? D&D isn't always played with friends. Not that many of my friends play D&D, or are interested in; most of the people I've played with were strangers to me when we first began playing. > Every time I hang out with my friends should we update our daily list of no-no words first? You likely have this list in your head already for your friends; it's not necessary to explicitly rehash it because you've built a relationship with these people, and you know not to brag about your awesome trip with your dad in front of someone who's dad died last week. But when you're meeting new people, you don't know what they've gone through. That's why it's better to be explicit at the start of this.

rayiner 2y ago
> Another way to interpret this would be that people are becoming increasingly comfortable with telling people they're not comfortable with something, and leaving when others at the table are refusing to take the feelings of others into consideration Yet another way to interpret this is we’re increasingly catering to narcissists who think that their personal feelings and sensitivities should override the norms and conventions of the group. Your example highlights the problem. You don’t need to tell people to tip toe around someone’s dad having died because that’s a generally recognized social norm. That’s what it comes down to. People want to just be able to target their behavior to a general, objective social norm, without customizing it for myriad individual sensitivities. That’s a good approach. Don’t do anything that transgresses the social norm. Don’t be offended by anything that complies with the social norm.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  > You don’t need to tell people to tip toe around someone’s dad having died because that’s a generally recognized social norm. No, but I do need to tell them that my dad died in order for them to know. Otherwise, the GM just might bring my PC's dad up out of the past, and kill him in front of my PC again. That's all that "the form" or Session Zero is. It's explicitly laying out things that you may be sensitive to, so that the rest of the group can continue to behave in that general, objective social norm you're talking about. It's a way for them to let me know that their dog died last week, so that I know that the first combat of the first session shouldn't be fighting a bunch of guard hounds.
- haswell 2y ago
  > People want to just be able to target their behavior to a general, objective social norm But herein lies the problem. There is no general, objective social norm that covers the range of topics necessary. Social norms are regional, cultural, familial, situational, etc. If you were to optimize for some universal standard, the result would be pretty boring. Think: “what would be appropriate in a corporate workplace?”. Learning to navigate this as a group seems like a rather reasonable and necessary social skill for everyone involved. People who bristle at those with certain sensitivities seem to be masking sensitivities of their own and would prefer to just avoid a potentially uncomfortable conversation. And I’ve gotta be blunt: many gamers (tabletop and otherwise) are often all too eager to blow right past norms or are unaware of them completely, which leads to recommendations like the above being helpful/necessary.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > But herein lies the problem. There is no general, objective social norm that covers the range of topics necessary. I’m pretty sure people happily played board games together in the recent past without these conversations.
    - danudey 2y ago
      A lot of people did, and a lot of people were made to feel extremely uncomfortable and unwelcome and ended up leaving the game/community because of their bad experiences with DMs who don't understand that it's not okay to have NPCs sexually assault a player's character just because they're a woman. Now that we're laying out these kinds of guidelines, maybe the people who legitimately don't understand why that's bad will stop and listen to what others have to say, and the ones who don't will be showing that they're deliberately ignoring how they make other people feel.
- jitl 2y ago
  Some nerds need and appreciate formalization of what you’re describing as a social norm being made explicit and spelled out for them. Besides, most DMs I’ve played with already do this kind of “ok what kinda stuff is everyone thinking about for this campaign?” conversation already, so these guidelines are just a reminder for players or DMs to include this stuff in that conversation too.
StanislavPetrov 2y ago
>But when you're meeting new people, you don't know what they've gone through. That's why it's better to be explicit at the start of this. Personally I find it useful when I first meet someone because I can mark them as someone to avoid. Life is far too short to voluntarily walk on eggshells all the with emotionally crippled people who are constantly looking for things to be offended about. This goes double for when it comes to playing long sessions of D&D or any other sort of free-form game. Not only did new management make these ridiculous changes to the core structure of the game, they recently threw Gary Gygax (who had more creativity and talent in his pinkie finger than any of them) and other founders under the bus. Fortunately nobody is prevented from getting old editions of D&D and playing a worthwhile game, or simply moving to GURPS or Runequest.
StanislavPetrov 2y ago
>But when you're meeting new people, you don't know what they've gone through. That's why it's better to be explicit at the start of this. Personally I find it useful when I first meet someone like this because I can mark them as someone to avoid. Life is far too short to voluntarily walk on eggshells all the with emotionally crippled people who are constantly looking for things to be offended about. This goes double for when it comes to playing long sessions of D&D or any other sort of free-form game. Not only did new management make these ridiculous changes to the core structure of the game, they recently threw Gary Gygax (who had more creativity and talent in his pinkie finger than any of them) and other founders under the bus. Fortunately nobody is prevented from getting old editions of D&D and playing a worthwhile game, or simply moving to GURPS or Runequest.

rayiner 2y ago

> Another way to interpret this would be that people are becoming increasingly comfortable with telling people they're not comfortable with something, and leaving when others at the table are refusing to take the feelings of others into consideration Yet another way to interpret this is we’re increasingly catering to narcissists who think that their personal feelings and sensitivities should override the norms and conventions of the group. Your example highlights the problem. You don’t need to tell people to tip toe around someone’s dad having died because that’s a generally recognized social norm. That’s what it comes down to. People want to just be able to target their behavior to a general, objective social norm, without customizing it for myriad individual sensitivities. That’s a good approach. Don’t do anything that transgresses the social norm. Don’t be offended by anything that complies with the social norm.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
> You don’t need to tell people to tip toe around someone’s dad having died because that’s a generally recognized social norm. No, but I do need to tell them that my dad died in order for them to know. Otherwise, the GM just might bring my PC's dad up out of the past, and kill him in front of my PC again. That's all that "the form" or Session Zero is. It's explicitly laying out things that you may be sensitive to, so that the rest of the group can continue to behave in that general, objective social norm you're talking about. It's a way for them to let me know that their dog died last week, so that I know that the first combat of the first session shouldn't be fighting a bunch of guard hounds.
haswell 2y ago
> People want to just be able to target their behavior to a general, objective social norm But herein lies the problem. There is no general, objective social norm that covers the range of topics necessary. Social norms are regional, cultural, familial, situational, etc. If you were to optimize for some universal standard, the result would be pretty boring. Think: “what would be appropriate in a corporate workplace?”. Learning to navigate this as a group seems like a rather reasonable and necessary social skill for everyone involved. People who bristle at those with certain sensitivities seem to be masking sensitivities of their own and would prefer to just avoid a potentially uncomfortable conversation. And I’ve gotta be blunt: many gamers (tabletop and otherwise) are often all too eager to blow right past norms or are unaware of them completely, which leads to recommendations like the above being helpful/necessary.
- rayiner 2y ago
  > But herein lies the problem. There is no general, objective social norm that covers the range of topics necessary. I’m pretty sure people happily played board games together in the recent past without these conversations.
  - danudey 2y ago
    A lot of people did, and a lot of people were made to feel extremely uncomfortable and unwelcome and ended up leaving the game/community because of their bad experiences with DMs who don't understand that it's not okay to have NPCs sexually assault a player's character just because they're a woman. Now that we're laying out these kinds of guidelines, maybe the people who legitimately don't understand why that's bad will stop and listen to what others have to say, and the ones who don't will be showing that they're deliberately ignoring how they make other people feel.
jitl 2y ago
Some nerds need and appreciate formalization of what you’re describing as a social norm being made explicit and spelled out for them. Besides, most DMs I’ve played with already do this kind of “ok what kinda stuff is everyone thinking about for this campaign?” conversation already, so these guidelines are just a reminder for players or DMs to include this stuff in that conversation too.

StanislavPetrov 2y ago

>But when you're meeting new people, you don't know what they've gone through. That's why it's better to be explicit at the start of this. Personally I find it useful when I first meet someone because I can mark them as someone to avoid. Life is far too short to voluntarily walk on eggshells all the with emotionally crippled people who are constantly looking for things to be offended about. This goes double for when it comes to playing long sessions of D&D or any other sort of free-form game. Not only did new management make these ridiculous changes to the core structure of the game, they recently threw Gary Gygax (who had more creativity and talent in his pinkie finger than any of them) and other founders under the bus. Fortunately nobody is prevented from getting old editions of D&D and playing a worthwhile game, or simply moving to GURPS or Runequest.

StanislavPetrov 2y ago

>But when you're meeting new people, you don't know what they've gone through. That's why it's better to be explicit at the start of this. Personally I find it useful when I first meet someone like this because I can mark them as someone to avoid. Life is far too short to voluntarily walk on eggshells all the with emotionally crippled people who are constantly looking for things to be offended about. This goes double for when it comes to playing long sessions of D&D or any other sort of free-form game. Not only did new management make these ridiculous changes to the core structure of the game, they recently threw Gary Gygax (who had more creativity and talent in his pinkie finger than any of them) and other founders under the bus. Fortunately nobody is prevented from getting old editions of D&D and playing a worthwhile game, or simply moving to GURPS or Runequest.