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> The company now suggests that extended Dungeons & Dragons campaigns begin with a session in which players discuss their expectations and list topics to avoid,

> The company now suggests that extended Dungeons & Dragons campaigns begin with a session in which players discuss their expectations and list topics to avoid, which could include sexual assault or drug use. Dungeon masters are encouraged to establish a signal that allows players to articulate their distress with any subject matter and automatically overrule the dungeon master’s own story line. This got a lot of flak. But I can see why they did it. Many such cases of DMs, especially the game store kind, using DnD as their own sexual assault simulator. RPGHorrorStories has a lot.

caeril 2y ago
> > which could include sexual assault or drug use Wouldn't any potion, including potions of healing, be considered "drug use"? Howabout excessive drinking by dwarves at a tavern in the canonical DM party formation ritual?
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  In the western world, a potion of healing is more akin to taking antibiotics, and imbibing alcohol has been agreed to be just a Regular Thing People Do, not a drug thing. And in any case, yeah! This is why you talk things out in a session zero! If a player at a table is an alcoholic, they might not want to play in a campaign where other PCs regularly binge-drink. It doesn't necessarily mean the other players aren't allowed to do this, it might just mean that this isn't the right table for the player, or it might mean that the DM has to scratch out "alcoholic" as a trait for an NPC and replace it with something else.
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    If you need to go through a HR exercise at the beginning of a game perhaps you need to find a different group of people to play with.
    - pavel_lishin 2y ago
      Why do you frame it as an "HR exercise" when it's just the people who are about to play a game talking about what they expect out of it? And how would I find a group of people whose playstyle is compatible with what I'm looking for without actually talking to them?
      - danudey 2y ago
        > Why do you frame it as an "HR exercise" when it's just the people who are about to play a game talking about what they expect out of it? Because they're so incapable of considering other people's feelings that they think the only time anyone ever does so is because someone cried to HR about something and HR is making you sit through a meeting to cover the company's ass legally, and not because anyone actually cares about how they make other people feel.
    - zug_zug 2y ago
      So what if your dad died last month, and the DM decides it'll be a cool twist for his BBEG to abduct your character's dad gouge his eyes out and try to kill him? It's good to be able to explain these things, and IMO a lot of D&D players aren't comfortable being the first one to say that stuff without an "HR" exercise to give them permission.
      - ddingus 2y ago
        Well, if my dad had died, I would understand the DM has no clue, until I say something. If I say something and that scene plays out, things are understandably ugly. If I don't and find myself uncomfortable, that is on me to manage, nobody else at the table. How are these things so damn hard for people to understand? All that was true when I played years ago. People would intro the game, have chat about stuff and then get into it. I recall having tough conversations, and I recall just being a good human to the other humans as a given. I don't get the discussion today.
        pavel_lishin 2y ago
ghusto 2y ago
So don't play with those ones? This is why these types of initiatives do far more harm than good. They hide problems rather than address them.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  > This is why these types of initiatives do far more harm than good. They hide problems rather than address them. How do these initiatives hide these problems?
- krapp 2y ago
  But this "initiative" suggests addressing the problems through dialogue. D&D is supposed to be a collaborative effort, "My way or the highway" isn't how a table should be run.
- hooverd 2y ago
  Those people typically don't tell you ahead of time. I wouldn't do this with my close friend group either, we know each other. I think we can all agree on "hey this is touchy for me could we please not" and it works as a filter for people who get upset about it.
- zug_zug 2y ago
  Presumably you've had different experiences, but from my personal D&D experience I've had zero people who abused the "distress signaling" and seen multiple cases where people were a bit uncomfortable and didn't really say anything other than snarky jokes (e.g. a player's backstory culminates in them graphically torturing an NPC to death while everybody else at the table is weirded out). "Don't play with them" strikes me as impractical advice compared to communicating. If you're 6 months into a campaign as opposed to establishing a protocol to be able to say "hey this is kinda much for me, could we take the gruesome details of this offline?" Communicating a tone for the setting early would have also helped.
- araes 2y ago
  Agree, only issue is sometimes it's difficult to leave if the game runner or the players spring this type of sh** behavior on you. Especially if you're not expecting it, and then players / runner do almost nothing other than try to in some way entrap you in a miserable experience. Like noted below in a different comment, happens when you're trying to run a game also. Players do the same, trying to act out their disgusting fetishes, while forcing you to run the experience. Many horrible experiences over the years from the show runner side of the table. May be your only social group. Usually people who are this far down in the nerd / geek hierarchy don't have that many friends anyways. It usually implies you already failed most of the ideas human society prioritizes anyways. Often means the only people to hang out with are other nerds and rejects. NY Times (frankly really mean) chart on the subject from 2008 [1]. Course, what do you expect from the company that wrote this article being discussed? This (somewhat) less mean (although still about the same) chart [2] has approximately the same view on the situation. You're already down with people who watch children's shows and go to Ren Faires. Probably the type that sit around on New Years Day arguing about Dungeons and Dragons annoying PC rule changes rather than having friends to party with. [1] http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/09/opinion/09opart.large.gif http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/09/opinion/09opa... [2] https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiOI7GKUOQki2vm_OMxR-cTq8k-i_vHKqeXUDQJCG5fC52hCzL_tX89nY0VF8_V3d6WSr4ar-GUByK_X0lQU_H012wpDV657gqQrsHJjm2ewMwbxvbF1UryFgv2HYW57cI7qVo2cVbFiHU/s1600/nerd.heirarchy.gif https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi...
stormfather 2y ago
I see why it gets a lot of flak too. People are becoming increasingly neurotic and fragile, and coupled with that we are increasingly unable to fluidly deal with differences this creates as they arise. We're talking about playing a boardgame with friends, do we really need to have a trigger-warning session? And when does that end? Every time I hang out with my friends should we update our daily list of no-no words first?
- hooverd 2y ago
  If you're playing with close friends, you probably wouldn't railroad things to their character that would damage your friendship. If you know your friend is touchy about something traumatic do you rib them about it?
- c22 2y ago
  You can use whatever rules you like with your friends. When I play Monopoly with my friends we like to put fees and fines on "Free Parking," then if you land there you can take the money. We all agreed it's more fun this way.
  - valbaca 2y ago
    > When I play Monopoly with my friends we like to put fees and fines on "Free Parking," then if you land there you can take the money. We all agreed it's more fun this way. Listen, your game, your rules 100% But I will say, the Free Parking house rule is why most games of Monopoly take so freaking long. (And if you're fine with that, then that's fine too!). The fees and fines are meant to take money out of the player's pockets and drive them closer to bankruptcy so the dang game CAN end. Unfortunately, it's a game that just feels bad. You either play as-is and it feels bad to go broke. or you house-rule and the money keeps circulating until someone builds all Hotels and completely obliterates someone when they land on the third and fourth-edge properties
    - nemo44x 2y ago
      But it's just so much fun you never want it to end!
mmooss 2y ago
Why would the DM put something in their game that actually traumatizes people?
- UncleMeat 2y ago
  While I'd generally expect this to be naturally rare in dnd, this isn't the case in many other games. Monsterhearts deals with unhealthy sexual relationships at its core. Night Witches deals with sexism at its core. Bluebeard's Bride deals with straight up sexual violence at its core. These topics are heavy and its worth having some systems in place to help people navigate them. This is especially true with con culture, where people are likely to play ttrpgs with total strangers.
- danudey 2y ago
  Some people just don't understand social norms and, you know, other people's feelings, and use these sorts of games as their own personal power fantasy. There have been a kind of gross number of threads I've seen where women join a group, make their character, and then spend the entire first session having their character abused, belittled, sexually assaulted, impregnated, etc. Worth noting that not all D&D groups are among close friends; sometimes you get invited to a group because you're looking for people to play with and your friend group (if you have one) doesn't play. No different than joining a frisbee golf team, except with a much greater chance of a bottom-tier caliber of people.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  It's not hard to do inadvertently, especially if you are going for a game that deals with heavy topics. Something that feels to be about the same level of seriousness to the DM may hit too close to home for a player (and one reason for X-card like systems on top of discussing stuff before the game, is that the player themselves may not realise themselves until they're in the moment)
- araes 2y ago
  Because they're manipulative, mean humans. Players do the same. Try to run a somewhat normal game, and your players will purposely try to act in some of the most reprehensible ways imaginable just to try to force you to run their disgusting fantasies.

caeril 2y ago

> > which could include sexual assault or drug use Wouldn't any potion, including potions of healing, be considered "drug use"? Howabout excessive drinking by dwarves at a tavern in the canonical DM party formation ritual?

pavel_lishin 2y ago
In the western world, a potion of healing is more akin to taking antibiotics, and imbibing alcohol has been agreed to be just a Regular Thing People Do, not a drug thing. And in any case, yeah! This is why you talk things out in a session zero! If a player at a table is an alcoholic, they might not want to play in a campaign where other PCs regularly binge-drink. It doesn't necessarily mean the other players aren't allowed to do this, it might just mean that this isn't the right table for the player, or it might mean that the DM has to scratch out "alcoholic" as a trait for an NPC and replace it with something else.
- nothercastle 2y ago
  If you need to go through a HR exercise at the beginning of a game perhaps you need to find a different group of people to play with.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    Why do you frame it as an "HR exercise" when it's just the people who are about to play a game talking about what they expect out of it? And how would I find a group of people whose playstyle is compatible with what I'm looking for without actually talking to them?
    - danudey 2y ago
      > Why do you frame it as an "HR exercise" when it's just the people who are about to play a game talking about what they expect out of it? Because they're so incapable of considering other people's feelings that they think the only time anyone ever does so is because someone cried to HR about something and HR is making you sit through a meeting to cover the company's ass legally, and not because anyone actually cares about how they make other people feel.
  - zug_zug 2y ago
    So what if your dad died last month, and the DM decides it'll be a cool twist for his BBEG to abduct your character's dad gouge his eyes out and try to kill him? It's good to be able to explain these things, and IMO a lot of D&D players aren't comfortable being the first one to say that stuff without an "HR" exercise to give them permission.
    - ddingus 2y ago
      Well, if my dad had died, I would understand the DM has no clue, until I say something. If I say something and that scene plays out, things are understandably ugly. If I don't and find myself uncomfortable, that is on me to manage, nobody else at the table. How are these things so damn hard for people to understand? All that was true when I played years ago. People would intro the game, have chat about stuff and then get into it. I recall having tough conversations, and I recall just being a good human to the other humans as a given. I don't get the discussion today.
      - pavel_lishin 2y ago

ghusto 2y ago

So don't play with those ones? This is why these types of initiatives do far more harm than good. They hide problems rather than address them.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
> This is why these types of initiatives do far more harm than good. They hide problems rather than address them. How do these initiatives hide these problems?
krapp 2y ago
But this "initiative" suggests addressing the problems through dialogue. D&D is supposed to be a collaborative effort, "My way or the highway" isn't how a table should be run.
hooverd 2y ago
Those people typically don't tell you ahead of time. I wouldn't do this with my close friend group either, we know each other. I think we can all agree on "hey this is touchy for me could we please not" and it works as a filter for people who get upset about it.
zug_zug 2y ago
Presumably you've had different experiences, but from my personal D&D experience I've had zero people who abused the "distress signaling" and seen multiple cases where people were a bit uncomfortable and didn't really say anything other than snarky jokes (e.g. a player's backstory culminates in them graphically torturing an NPC to death while everybody else at the table is weirded out). "Don't play with them" strikes me as impractical advice compared to communicating. If you're 6 months into a campaign as opposed to establishing a protocol to be able to say "hey this is kinda much for me, could we take the gruesome details of this offline?" Communicating a tone for the setting early would have also helped.
araes 2y ago
Agree, only issue is sometimes it's difficult to leave if the game runner or the players spring this type of sh** behavior on you. Especially if you're not expecting it, and then players / runner do almost nothing other than try to in some way entrap you in a miserable experience. Like noted below in a different comment, happens when you're trying to run a game also. Players do the same, trying to act out their disgusting fetishes, while forcing you to run the experience. Many horrible experiences over the years from the show runner side of the table. May be your only social group. Usually people who are this far down in the nerd / geek hierarchy don't have that many friends anyways. It usually implies you already failed most of the ideas human society prioritizes anyways. Often means the only people to hang out with are other nerds and rejects. NY Times (frankly really mean) chart on the subject from 2008 [1]. Course, what do you expect from the company that wrote this article being discussed? This (somewhat) less mean (although still about the same) chart [2] has approximately the same view on the situation. You're already down with people who watch children's shows and go to Ren Faires. Probably the type that sit around on New Years Day arguing about Dungeons and Dragons annoying PC rule changes rather than having friends to party with. [1] http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/09/opinion/09opart.large.gif http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/09/opinion/09opa... [2] https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiOI7GKUOQki2vm_OMxR-cTq8k-i_vHKqeXUDQJCG5fC52hCzL_tX89nY0VF8_V3d6WSr4ar-GUByK_X0lQU_H012wpDV657gqQrsHJjm2ewMwbxvbF1UryFgv2HYW57cI7qVo2cVbFiHU/s1600/nerd.heirarchy.gif https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi...

stormfather 2y ago

I see why it gets a lot of flak too. People are becoming increasingly neurotic and fragile, and coupled with that we are increasingly unable to fluidly deal with differences this creates as they arise. We're talking about playing a boardgame with friends, do we really need to have a trigger-warning session? And when does that end? Every time I hang out with my friends should we update our daily list of no-no words first?

hooverd 2y ago
If you're playing with close friends, you probably wouldn't railroad things to their character that would damage your friendship. If you know your friend is touchy about something traumatic do you rib them about it?
c22 2y ago
You can use whatever rules you like with your friends. When I play Monopoly with my friends we like to put fees and fines on "Free Parking," then if you land there you can take the money. We all agreed it's more fun this way.
- valbaca 2y ago
  > When I play Monopoly with my friends we like to put fees and fines on "Free Parking," then if you land there you can take the money. We all agreed it's more fun this way. Listen, your game, your rules 100% But I will say, the Free Parking house rule is why most games of Monopoly take so freaking long. (And if you're fine with that, then that's fine too!). The fees and fines are meant to take money out of the player's pockets and drive them closer to bankruptcy so the dang game CAN end. Unfortunately, it's a game that just feels bad. You either play as-is and it feels bad to go broke. or you house-rule and the money keeps circulating until someone builds all Hotels and completely obliterates someone when they land on the third and fourth-edge properties
  - nemo44x 2y ago
    But it's just so much fun you never want it to end!

mmooss 2y ago

Why would the DM put something in their game that actually traumatizes people?

UncleMeat 2y ago
While I'd generally expect this to be naturally rare in dnd, this isn't the case in many other games. Monsterhearts deals with unhealthy sexual relationships at its core. Night Witches deals with sexism at its core. Bluebeard's Bride deals with straight up sexual violence at its core. These topics are heavy and its worth having some systems in place to help people navigate them. This is especially true with con culture, where people are likely to play ttrpgs with total strangers.
danudey 2y ago
Some people just don't understand social norms and, you know, other people's feelings, and use these sorts of games as their own personal power fantasy. There have been a kind of gross number of threads I've seen where women join a group, make their character, and then spend the entire first session having their character abused, belittled, sexually assaulted, impregnated, etc. Worth noting that not all D&D groups are among close friends; sometimes you get invited to a group because you're looking for people to play with and your friend group (if you have one) doesn't play. No different than joining a frisbee golf team, except with a much greater chance of a bottom-tier caliber of people.
rcxdude 2y ago
It's not hard to do inadvertently, especially if you are going for a game that deals with heavy topics. Something that feels to be about the same level of seriousness to the DM may hit too close to home for a player (and one reason for X-card like systems on top of discussing stuff before the game, is that the player themselves may not realise themselves until they're in the moment)
araes 2y ago
Because they're manipulative, mean humans. Players do the same. Try to run a somewhat normal game, and your players will purposely try to act in some of the most reprehensible ways imaginable just to try to force you to run their disgusting fantasies.