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As you've brought China into this, which is the greater scandal? 1) VW Group collects data on its customers. 2) Chinese-made vehicles have potential two-way t

As you've brought China into this, which is the greater scandal? 1) VW Group collects data on its customers. 2) Chinese-made vehicles have potential two-way telemetry and control (we don't know, it's closed-source), and we've just allowed tens of thousands of 1.5-tonne, potentially autonomous vehicles with goodness-knows-what sensor packages, plenty of demonstrated ability to kill, injure, catch fire or block critical infrastructure, and backdoors to a not-exactly-friendly foreign government, unfettered access to our streets. I'm not saying Chinese EVs are a Trojan horse, but I can hardly think of a more effective way to do it, if they wanted to. Even assuming there's no "actor" component and they do nothing more than passive data-gathering, that's still.. huge.. right?

epolanski 2y ago
2) is ridiculous speculation and fearmongering. Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? I don't care how much media tries to brainwash us that China is my enemy, facts are that there are way more tangible proofs of all us being consistently spied by US-led agencies, we have proof that from dams to electrical grids the US has one button methods to create chaos in most of the world, and yet, people consistently go into these far fetching anti Chinese speculation when the proof is that the spying, meddling boogeyman is in Washington. This all feels like the usual US exceptionalism, where the only country that is exceptional and allowed to ignore rules is US, and others cannot.
- Earw0rm 2y ago
  Because Tesla isn't owned and controlled by a foreign government and military rival. (OK, Elon is a little too cosy with Putin for my liking, but not to that extent). I think it's reasonable to be sceptical about whether a state that brings us disposable vapes, TikTok and throwaway fast fashion has our best interests at heart.
  - simoncion 2y ago
    Unless you're ultra-wealthy and particularly powerful, you should be skeptical that most any State has your best interests at heart... and even those rich and powerful folks tend to get swatted down if they become too much of a nuisance.
  - Lio 2y ago
    Isn’t Musk an unelected part of the US government now? He’s also talking about interfering in my country by giving huge sums of money to a wacky Spode-a-like conman that’s already taken billions out of our economy. To my mind we should be skeptical of all foreign interference no matter where it comes from.
    - Earw0rm 2y ago
      I was writing from a US-aligned perspective. If you view the US as a hostile power, then yes the same - to some degree - applies to Tesla. Although I think they're not as good at covering their tracks for something like that.
      - Lio 2y ago
        I don’t view the US as a hostile power I view them as our closest ally. On the other hand Musk is part of the US government now and he is out to fuck us up. So what do we do? We live in interesting times unfortunately. We’ll just have to see what happens.
      - epolanski 2y ago
        > If you view the US as a hostile power, then yes the same - to some degree - applies to Tesla. Times change. Your allies of today are your foes in a decade. You don't know. Still, there's billions and billions of spying devices and US-controlled electronics. And I'm not making this up, we know for a fact NSA has put backdoors and hacks in both commercial routers and chips that are used everywhere in the world. Yet you americans think it's fine if you do it, and it's also fine to speculate about other countries maybe doing it, and going into these crazy scenarios where Chinese EVs start ramming people. Give me a break. Such comments do nothing but remind me that US exceptionalism, the idea that the US can play by a different playbook is a huge danger and menace to world peace. It will keep pissing off allies and non-allies alike.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    > Because Tesla isn't owned and controlled by a foreign government and military rival. Musk going into bed with AfD puts him on an “adversary radar” for me, an immigrant in Germany. So hold your horses. US is cool until it isn’t. Political goals decide who US likes and this can change from one election to another.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    1) Imagine how biased you are, to throw such ridiculous arguments: China did not invent disposable vapes, those are even banned in their country, it did not invent algorithm-driven video social media and even less fast fashion (Zara was the first huge brand popularizing it, and the clothes were made in Spain). 2) Musk is literally a member of the next cabinet. And you have no clues and are probably delusional if you think Tesla vehicles aren't sharing their data with US agencies. It's obvious this happens. 3) China is not my military rival. Not sure why do you believe that, unless you live in the strange american exceptionalism where US has to be the biggest military dog in the world and if there's another country that could threaten this position it has to be limited. It has never attacked my country or any of my allies, whereas I can remember many of my allies putting their foot, colonising and fighting China and its neighbours.
    - polotics 2y ago
      Ask a philippino sailor what they think about your 3rd statement, maybe? Cue non-US news source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/11/whats-behind-escalating-china-philippines-tensions-in-the-south-china-sea https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/11/whats-behind-escal...
- f1shy 2y ago
  I do not think 2 is ridiculous. Not at all! But I agree we should fear that from all vehicles, no matter what make.
  - simoncion 2y ago
    #2 is absolutely ridiculous. As OP said: > 2) is ridiculous speculation and fearmongering. Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? The idea expressed is the notion that one should be afraid of this "special threat" posed by Chinese-made vehicles... which is utter nonsense and fearmongering. It seems like you and the OP are in agreement here. EDIT: Fixed my bad Engrish and grammar in the second-to-last paragraph
- tjoff 2y ago
  > Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? You aren't? You should.
t0bia_s 2y ago
The worse part here is, that overpriced EV's are donated by EU taxes, companies can ask about 8000 EUR per vehicle. Same for photovoltaic panels, made only in China. Buying stuffs on market is one thing. Twisting market by government, is another story.

epolanski 2y ago

2) is ridiculous speculation and fearmongering. Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? I don't care how much media tries to brainwash us that China is my enemy, facts are that there are way more tangible proofs of all us being consistently spied by US-led agencies, we have proof that from dams to electrical grids the US has one button methods to create chaos in most of the world, and yet, people consistently go into these far fetching anti Chinese speculation when the proof is that the spying, meddling boogeyman is in Washington. This all feels like the usual US exceptionalism, where the only country that is exceptional and allowed to ignore rules is US, and others cannot.

Earw0rm 2y ago
Because Tesla isn't owned and controlled by a foreign government and military rival. (OK, Elon is a little too cosy with Putin for my liking, but not to that extent). I think it's reasonable to be sceptical about whether a state that brings us disposable vapes, TikTok and throwaway fast fashion has our best interests at heart.
- simoncion 2y ago
  Unless you're ultra-wealthy and particularly powerful, you should be skeptical that most any State has your best interests at heart... and even those rich and powerful folks tend to get swatted down if they become too much of a nuisance.
- Lio 2y ago
  Isn’t Musk an unelected part of the US government now? He’s also talking about interfering in my country by giving huge sums of money to a wacky Spode-a-like conman that’s already taken billions out of our economy. To my mind we should be skeptical of all foreign interference no matter where it comes from.
  - Earw0rm 2y ago
    I was writing from a US-aligned perspective. If you view the US as a hostile power, then yes the same - to some degree - applies to Tesla. Although I think they're not as good at covering their tracks for something like that.
    - Lio 2y ago
      I don’t view the US as a hostile power I view them as our closest ally. On the other hand Musk is part of the US government now and he is out to fuck us up. So what do we do? We live in interesting times unfortunately. We’ll just have to see what happens.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      > If you view the US as a hostile power, then yes the same - to some degree - applies to Tesla. Times change. Your allies of today are your foes in a decade. You don't know. Still, there's billions and billions of spying devices and US-controlled electronics. And I'm not making this up, we know for a fact NSA has put backdoors and hacks in both commercial routers and chips that are used everywhere in the world. Yet you americans think it's fine if you do it, and it's also fine to speculate about other countries maybe doing it, and going into these crazy scenarios where Chinese EVs start ramming people. Give me a break. Such comments do nothing but remind me that US exceptionalism, the idea that the US can play by a different playbook is a huge danger and menace to world peace. It will keep pissing off allies and non-allies alike.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  > Because Tesla isn't owned and controlled by a foreign government and military rival. Musk going into bed with AfD puts him on an “adversary radar” for me, an immigrant in Germany. So hold your horses. US is cool until it isn’t. Political goals decide who US likes and this can change from one election to another.
- epolanski 2y ago
  1) Imagine how biased you are, to throw such ridiculous arguments: China did not invent disposable vapes, those are even banned in their country, it did not invent algorithm-driven video social media and even less fast fashion (Zara was the first huge brand popularizing it, and the clothes were made in Spain). 2) Musk is literally a member of the next cabinet. And you have no clues and are probably delusional if you think Tesla vehicles aren't sharing their data with US agencies. It's obvious this happens. 3) China is not my military rival. Not sure why do you believe that, unless you live in the strange american exceptionalism where US has to be the biggest military dog in the world and if there's another country that could threaten this position it has to be limited. It has never attacked my country or any of my allies, whereas I can remember many of my allies putting their foot, colonising and fighting China and its neighbours.
  - polotics 2y ago
    Ask a philippino sailor what they think about your 3rd statement, maybe? Cue non-US news source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/11/whats-behind-escalating-china-philippines-tensions-in-the-south-china-sea https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/11/whats-behind-escal...
f1shy 2y ago
I do not think 2 is ridiculous. Not at all! But I agree we should fear that from all vehicles, no matter what make.
- simoncion 2y ago
  #2 is absolutely ridiculous. As OP said: > 2) is ridiculous speculation and fearmongering. Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? The idea expressed is the notion that one should be afraid of this "special threat" posed by Chinese-made vehicles... which is utter nonsense and fearmongering. It seems like you and the OP are in agreement here. EDIT: Fixed my bad Engrish and grammar in the second-to-last paragraph
tjoff 2y ago
> Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? You aren't? You should.

t0bia_s 2y ago

The worse part here is, that overpriced EV's are donated by EU taxes, companies can ask about 8000 EUR per vehicle. Same for photovoltaic panels, made only in China. Buying stuffs on market is one thing. Twisting market by government, is another story.