4 ms·

it's debated because it's impossile to settle. Otherwise set the minimum wage to $5000 per hr. See how it works out

by nox101 2y ago

rfrey 2y ago
That's not a convincing rebuttle. Saying that "drinking water is healthy" is controversial because "drink 1000 litres in a day and see how that goes" does not help the conversation.
- kortilla 2y ago
  That’s a perfectly fine response when the entire counter argument is “raising minimum wage is fine because everyone magically does better business to support it”. That’s ridiculous on its face because there isn’t any higher level of productivity so someone in the economy is eating that loss.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    I don't think it is that clear-cut, though. People who are well-fed, well-rested, free from stress and have good healthcare do tend to be more productive.
    - nox101 2y ago
      You're ignoring all the people that lost their jobs and had their hours shortened. If 1000 people earn minimum wage, raising it, some of them make more money, some lose money because their hours are shortened, some lose money because the jobs disappear. Whether that's a net positive overall is what's debated.
      - pydry 2y ago
        >You're ignoring all the people that lost their jobs Because Dube, Lester, Reich says that they don't exist. Businesses pay for almost all hikes by dipping into their profit margins. A small % raise prices. A negligible number let people go.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        Is there no truth to the California fast food restaurant closure wave I heard about when they raised fast food minimum wage to $20/hour?
        vlovich123 2y ago
        It’s not really clear. First, a lot of the criticism that restaurants are closing are from restaurants that would have closed anyway [1]. > The biggest expense Rubio’s has been facing is debt — a burden that has grown since the chain was acquired in 2010 by the private equity firm Mill Road Capital There’s an argument to be made that maybe the number of jobs in the fast food sector has decreased. But that’s also a myopic view since we need to know the labor situation statewide. Someone not in a fast food job might have found employment elsewhere which isn’t a bad thing, especially since the workers who do have those jobs are being paid a livable wage. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-06-12/the-fast-food-industry-claims-the-california-minimum-wage-law-is-costing-jobs-its-numbers-are-fake https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-06-12/the-fast-f...
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - eru 2y ago
      It's legal for employers to offer these benefits.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  It is a convincing rebuttal. Same for your water example. At some point, water stops being healthy, without knowing at what point, you can't just ask people to just drink more water, otherwise they may die. In fact people have died for that reason. At some point, increasing minimum wage will cause unemployment and destroy companies. Maybe we are at that point, or maybe not, without a bound, there is no way to tell.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Well we're not at that point right now, and in 2009 $7.25/hr also wasn't at that point either. So surely we can bump to $10.83 pretty darn safely since it's the same in real dollars.
    - jandrewrogers 2y ago
      On the other hand, experiments with $20+ minimum wages in places like Seattle are creating an unsustainable drop in revenues for a lot of restaurants and the tips that employees expected. It is a curve, and price discovery is definitely a thing that the government can’t ignore. In Seattle they are in the awkward phase where the politicians admit the problem but walking back the minimum wage policy, which ratchets upward every year, is not something they want to consider politically. I have close friends in the food service industry in Seattle that have become quite against the minimum wage increases (which they earn as base pay) because it is costing them a lot of money in real terms and they foresee future reductions in employability, which puts them at risk economically. This coming from an era when competent service employees were so in demand that employers would make concessions that even tech employees don’t get. They weren’t paid as much but they were given flexibility that most people would envy.
      - forgetfreeman 2y ago
        Hey. Remember that time a bunch of economists and politicians got together and decided we'd brick domestic manufacturing and switch to a service economy? Well this is what a service economy looks like.

it's debated because it's impossile to settle. Otherwise set the minimum wage to $5000 per hr. See how it works out

by nox101 2y ago

it's debated because it's impossile to settle. Otherwise set the minimum wage to $5000 per hr. See how it works out

That's not a convincing rebuttle. Saying that "drinking water is healthy" is controversial because "drink 1000 litres in a day and see how that goes" does not help the conversation.

kortilla 2y ago
That’s a perfectly fine response when the entire counter argument is “raising minimum wage is fine because everyone magically does better business to support it”. That’s ridiculous on its face because there isn’t any higher level of productivity so someone in the economy is eating that loss.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I don't think it is that clear-cut, though. People who are well-fed, well-rested, free from stress and have good healthcare do tend to be more productive.
  - nox101 2y ago
    You're ignoring all the people that lost their jobs and had their hours shortened. If 1000 people earn minimum wage, raising it, some of them make more money, some lose money because their hours are shortened, some lose money because the jobs disappear. Whether that's a net positive overall is what's debated.
    - pydry 2y ago
      >You're ignoring all the people that lost their jobs Because Dube, Lester, Reich says that they don't exist. Businesses pay for almost all hikes by dipping into their profit margins. A small % raise prices. A negligible number let people go.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        Is there no truth to the California fast food restaurant closure wave I heard about when they raised fast food minimum wage to $20/hour?
        vlovich123 2y ago
        It’s not really clear. First, a lot of the criticism that restaurants are closing are from restaurants that would have closed anyway [1]. > The biggest expense Rubio’s has been facing is debt — a burden that has grown since the chain was acquired in 2010 by the private equity firm Mill Road Capital There’s an argument to be made that maybe the number of jobs in the fast food sector has decreased. But that’s also a myopic view since we need to know the labor situation statewide. Someone not in a fast food job might have found employment elsewhere which isn’t a bad thing, especially since the workers who do have those jobs are being paid a livable wage. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-06-12/the-fast-food-industry-claims-the-california-minimum-wage-law-is-costing-jobs-its-numbers-are-fake https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2024-06-12/the-fast-f...
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - eru 2y ago
    It's legal for employers to offer these benefits.
GuB-42 2y ago
It is a convincing rebuttal. Same for your water example. At some point, water stops being healthy, without knowing at what point, you can't just ask people to just drink more water, otherwise they may die. In fact people have died for that reason. At some point, increasing minimum wage will cause unemployment and destroy companies. Maybe we are at that point, or maybe not, without a bound, there is no way to tell.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Well we're not at that point right now, and in 2009 $7.25/hr also wasn't at that point either. So surely we can bump to $10.83 pretty darn safely since it's the same in real dollars.
  - jandrewrogers 2y ago
    On the other hand, experiments with $20+ minimum wages in places like Seattle are creating an unsustainable drop in revenues for a lot of restaurants and the tips that employees expected. It is a curve, and price discovery is definitely a thing that the government can’t ignore. In Seattle they are in the awkward phase where the politicians admit the problem but walking back the minimum wage policy, which ratchets upward every year, is not something they want to consider politically. I have close friends in the food service industry in Seattle that have become quite against the minimum wage increases (which they earn as base pay) because it is costing them a lot of money in real terms and they foresee future reductions in employability, which puts them at risk economically. This coming from an era when competent service employees were so in demand that employers would make concessions that even tech employees don’t get. They weren’t paid as much but they were given flexibility that most people would envy.
    - forgetfreeman 2y ago
      Hey. Remember that time a bunch of economists and politicians got together and decided we'd brick domestic manufacturing and switch to a service economy? Well this is what a service economy looks like.