3 ms·

Frankly, human rights is mostly a talking point. The US allies itself with plenty of other countries with poor human rights records. Saudi Arabia kidnapped a US

Frankly, human rights is mostly a talking point. The US allies itself with plenty of other countries with poor human rights records. Saudi Arabia kidnapped a US resident and cut him into pieces but I have never heard any serious noises about ending that friendship. Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. Political expediency is. China is the US’s chief geopolitical rival, Saudi Arabia is not.

talldayo 2y ago
> Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. With a reductive enough set of criteria, you could say this of any ally of any nation anywhere in the world. If China was allied with the US instead of adversarial, you'd probably be calling out American tolerance of the Xinjiang cotton industry. But there is serious scrutiny of it, enabled by a remove from Chinese politics and party-aligned thought. If China respected the criticism they received from abroad, they would have a much clearer path to being a respected international power. From an American perspective, partnership with the Saudis isn't completely irredeemable. In fact, things are going pretty well - womens rights were enhanced (albeit not fixed), cultural reform succeeded, Sharia law was partially denounced and minors were exempted from the death sentence. As opposed to what would have happened without diplomatic relations, these citizens would have suffered even greater injustice. Giving Saudi Arabia an obligation to the international community actually did improve the conditions of their government and the people living there. It didn't magically correct things overnight, but the thaw is working. If you really want to make Americans piss their breeches, just mention Israel. That is a proper example of an unrepentant US ally that has abused the trust of the international community and continues to deviate from the global basis of human rights. Khashoggi dies, and the world is up in arms. The Mossad or the IDF does the same thing, and everyone asks why you're surprised since Israel has been targeting journalists for decades. Of course, American nationalists treat Israel the way Chinese nationalists treat Tiananmen Square. The idea of it being a problem is denied - instead, it's a "small chapter in history", "it was justified", "it all happened so long ago" and "we can't do anything to fix it".
BobbyJo 2y ago
You'd be surprised to learn that most Americans also do not like how Saudi Arabia treats its citizens as well. How we feel about a government, and how we interact with it geopolitically, are two different things. We do not like how either of these two governments does things, but we coexist with them to the extent necessary because we share a planet. We trade with both for instance. We are free to feel how we want, and talk about it, and its the government's job to safeguard that freedom with pragmatic and necessary relationships.

talldayo 2y ago

> Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. With a reductive enough set of criteria, you could say this of any ally of any nation anywhere in the world. If China was allied with the US instead of adversarial, you'd probably be calling out American tolerance of the Xinjiang cotton industry. But there is serious scrutiny of it, enabled by a remove from Chinese politics and party-aligned thought. If China respected the criticism they received from abroad, they would have a much clearer path to being a respected international power. From an American perspective, partnership with the Saudis isn't completely irredeemable. In fact, things are going pretty well - womens rights were enhanced (albeit not fixed), cultural reform succeeded, Sharia law was partially denounced and minors were exempted from the death sentence. As opposed to what would have happened without diplomatic relations, these citizens would have suffered even greater injustice. Giving Saudi Arabia an obligation to the international community actually did improve the conditions of their government and the people living there. It didn't magically correct things overnight, but the thaw is working. If you really want to make Americans piss their breeches, just mention Israel. That is a proper example of an unrepentant US ally that has abused the trust of the international community and continues to deviate from the global basis of human rights. Khashoggi dies, and the world is up in arms. The Mossad or the IDF does the same thing, and everyone asks why you're surprised since Israel has been targeting journalists for decades. Of course, American nationalists treat Israel the way Chinese nationalists treat Tiananmen Square. The idea of it being a problem is denied - instead, it's a "small chapter in history", "it was justified", "it all happened so long ago" and "we can't do anything to fix it".

BobbyJo 2y ago

You'd be surprised to learn that most Americans also do not like how Saudi Arabia treats its citizens as well. How we feel about a government, and how we interact with it geopolitically, are two different things. We do not like how either of these two governments does things, but we coexist with them to the extent necessary because we share a planet. We trade with both for instance. We are free to feel how we want, and talk about it, and its the government's job to safeguard that freedom with pragmatic and necessary relationships.