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60% is a very huge number, not understanding the "only" wording. Also, as an European I know virtually no people opposing EU membership, when there are, it's g

60% is a very huge number, not understanding the "only" wording. Also, as an European I know virtually no people opposing EU membership, when there are, it's generally less educated people thinking that the economy or whatever would be better.

kukkeliskuu 2y ago
As an European, I know many who oppose EU membership, but most educated people would not express it publicly because they are harrassed if they express their opinion -- supposedly only "less educated people" -- i.e. idiots -- support it. It appears that opposing EU membership is kind of a taboo, and many educated people are afraid to express their opinion on the subject. Which tells you all you need to know about the legitimacy of EU.
- epolanski 2y ago
  And what are their arguments?
  - Jensson 2y ago
    They don't want to become like USA, that is the easiest argument. We see how USA went the slippery slope of removing states rights and expanding federal power, people in the EU don't want that. To prevent that from happening there needs to be a resistance to EU expanding its power, and the most effective way countries can do that is to threaten to leave.
    - epolanski 2y ago
      The US seems like a success model if anything. Wonder how much better would be the lives of Californians or Louisianans if they were their own country.
  - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
    Why do you ask? One often encounters an argument that if I cannot make up a rationale that you consider as reasonable, then it means I am wrong. The problem is that the polarization means that neither side can rationally understand the argument of the opposing side. The fact that you don't consider the argument of these people as reasonable does not prove anything.
  - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
    I have not reviewed all the arguments. One is simple. EU does not have a single language. There is are shared values, shared vision, shared culture, or shared identity among regular people. The cards are stacked against EU being succesful.
    - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
      "is are" => "are no"
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  The UK complained at length about the EU for decades including educated people so much so that they decided to leave and are now out. Both the far right and far left opposes the EU openly in France. Even amongst EU supporters there is a fair deal of criticisms levelled at the organisation. I think your alleged taboo is very much self imposed.
  - ericmay 2y ago
    Maybe it’s self-imposed because those mentioned don’t want to be lumped in with these extreme groups? I.e. the shy voter phenomenon.
int_19h 2y ago
> it's generally less educated people thinking that the economy or whatever would be better You should be very careful with these kinds of sentiments. Openly contemptuous elitism is how we ended up with Trump in US.
- dboreham 2y ago
  I'm not sure causation is proven. We have openly contemptuous elitism and we have Trump. Not necessarily cause and effect.
  - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
    Could such causation be proven, if it existed? I don't think so. In addition to contemptuous elitism and Trump, there is also agreement that the US is very divided. Also, as the posts above suggest, people who oppose people who oppose the EU, do not meet these people with the same proportion they appear to exist according to polls. Which matches my experience that educated people are afraid to express their opposition to the EU. Still does not prove causality, because causality on such an issue cannot be proven. You need to look into second-order effects in order to get a clue what is happening. First second-order clue is that people are afraid to express their opinion. The second one is that opinion is very polarized and people are divided on the issue into "us" and "them", i.e. divided.
    - chgs 2y ago
      Educated people in anonymous polls are afraid to express their opinion? https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-refere... And statistical correlation based on census data? https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/educational-attainment-brexit/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/educational-attain...
      - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
        GP claims that he has not met anybody who is against EU but presented statistics that only 60% support EU.

kukkeliskuu 2y ago

As an European, I know many who oppose EU membership, but most educated people would not express it publicly because they are harrassed if they express their opinion -- supposedly only "less educated people" -- i.e. idiots -- support it. It appears that opposing EU membership is kind of a taboo, and many educated people are afraid to express their opinion on the subject. Which tells you all you need to know about the legitimacy of EU.

epolanski 2y ago
And what are their arguments?
- Jensson 2y ago
  They don't want to become like USA, that is the easiest argument. We see how USA went the slippery slope of removing states rights and expanding federal power, people in the EU don't want that. To prevent that from happening there needs to be a resistance to EU expanding its power, and the most effective way countries can do that is to threaten to leave.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    The US seems like a success model if anything. Wonder how much better would be the lives of Californians or Louisianans if they were their own country.
- kukkeliskuu 2y ago
  Why do you ask? One often encounters an argument that if I cannot make up a rationale that you consider as reasonable, then it means I am wrong. The problem is that the polarization means that neither side can rationally understand the argument of the opposing side. The fact that you don't consider the argument of these people as reasonable does not prove anything.
- kukkeliskuu 2y ago
  I have not reviewed all the arguments. One is simple. EU does not have a single language. There is are shared values, shared vision, shared culture, or shared identity among regular people. The cards are stacked against EU being succesful.
  - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
    "is are" => "are no"
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
The UK complained at length about the EU for decades including educated people so much so that they decided to leave and are now out. Both the far right and far left opposes the EU openly in France. Even amongst EU supporters there is a fair deal of criticisms levelled at the organisation. I think your alleged taboo is very much self imposed.
- ericmay 2y ago
  Maybe it’s self-imposed because those mentioned don’t want to be lumped in with these extreme groups? I.e. the shy voter phenomenon.

int_19h 2y ago

> it's generally less educated people thinking that the economy or whatever would be better You should be very careful with these kinds of sentiments. Openly contemptuous elitism is how we ended up with Trump in US.

dboreham 2y ago
I'm not sure causation is proven. We have openly contemptuous elitism and we have Trump. Not necessarily cause and effect.
- kukkeliskuu 2y ago
  Could such causation be proven, if it existed? I don't think so. In addition to contemptuous elitism and Trump, there is also agreement that the US is very divided. Also, as the posts above suggest, people who oppose people who oppose the EU, do not meet these people with the same proportion they appear to exist according to polls. Which matches my experience that educated people are afraid to express their opposition to the EU. Still does not prove causality, because causality on such an issue cannot be proven. You need to look into second-order effects in order to get a clue what is happening. First second-order clue is that people are afraid to express their opinion. The second one is that opinion is very polarized and people are divided on the issue into "us" and "them", i.e. divided.
  - chgs 2y ago
    Educated people in anonymous polls are afraid to express their opinion? https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-refere... And statistical correlation based on census data? https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/educational-attainment-brexit/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/educational-attain...
    - kukkeliskuu 2y ago
      GP claims that he has not met anybody who is against EU but presented statistics that only 60% support EU.