4 ms·

The trouble is, none of this (with the exception of childbirth, and there are plenty of stay-at-home Dads) is gender-specific. Unfortunately, all continuing to

by kondro 14y ago

The trouble is, none of this (with the exception of childbirth, and there are plenty of stay-at-home Dads) is gender-specific. Unfortunately, all continuing to enforce how special women are (either positively or negatively, in this case) is to keep women thinking they need specialised tools to succeed. As a man, no one taught me how to interview well, or come back to the workforce after taking an extended break to care for someone else, or to be driven out of a position due to bullying (much more common than sexual harassment because it is much subtler). Why do you feel the need to single-out women for such general issues?

jordo37 14y ago
1) First, I am speaking from an assumption I hold that hiring people to work for you of all stripes, which means moving beyond the cis-white-males that are more common, leads to better teams, better products and better execution. 2) I usually think about non-standard channels for hiring, or assistance/boosting programs such as this focused on women (as one example of minorities in the tech field) because almost all of industry is subtly or not so subtly biased towards the majority. The ways you relax with coworkers, the non-programming personal attributes that are assessed in interviews, the similarity bias interviewers have to pick people like themselves. These are not intentional acts of sexism, but are nonetheless prevalent.
tanglisha 14y ago
Women and men are raised differently. Things that come natural to you, having been raised male, do not come naturally to a large number of women. Examples include how to make eye contact in an interview and how to shake hands properly. It is very common for women to be raised with an attitude of quietly waiting to be noticed, rather than pointing out their good traits and skills. This can leave them a bit lost when it comes to an interview, which is essentially the time to brag. Aside from childbirth itself, women are far more likely to be single parents than men are, and are normally the ones to stay home with sick children, especially when there is a long-term disease involved. Many women end up dealing with multiple name changes, across degrees and sometimes projects. Of course not all women lack these skills, we would never pretend that to be the case. But the ones that do are at a distinct disadvantage, and there are more of them out there than you realize. Who would you turn to if you didn't even know that your handshake felt like a dead fish and you never once made eye contact with the hiring manager? That kind of feedback doesn't exist after interviews.
- kondro 14y ago
  For each of these issues I can come up with a counter-point but it won't really solve anything. I agree that having this information available is a positive thing. Limiting it to either women, or even women in IT seems to be part of the problem (not the solution), in my opinion. By all means, market a generic series at women who may be having these problems, but I fail to see how limiting the audience to ONLY women stands up for equality.
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    Again, let me see if I have you right. A project launched by women, aimed at women, because women are an observable rarity in our industry ... is against equality. This isn't affirmative action. It's not a hiring policy. It's a private sector effort by interested individuals who want to help others like them.
    - kondro 14y ago
      In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does this project sound? "A project [to empower men], launched by men, aimed at men, because men are an observable majority in our industry."
      - jacques_chester 14y ago
        > In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does that follow? I'd genuinely like to know your reasoning.
        kondro 14y ago
        I come from a minority myself (gay from the ironically named Queensland) and find people say the stupidest things that, if modified as suggested, they would be embarrassed to say about themselves.
prodigal_erik 14y ago
They have to target a sympathetic group or they probably wouldn't get donations. Hardly anyone gives a crap what happens to men, especially other men. I'm actually unsure whether or not I would want my rivals to be better at negotiating and interviewing (driving market rates higher but closer to unsustainable levels, and schmoozing into positions that few of any gender are qualified for).
araneae 14y ago
>Unfortunately, all continuing to enforce how special women are (either positively or negatively, in this case) is to keep women thinking they need specialised tools to succeed. It emphasizes it to you. As a woman, it painstakingly obvious I am "special." At the last tech event I was at I was one of three women; one was the girlfriend of the organizer, one was a non technical person looking for technical help for a start-up, and the other was me. I felt awkward and stood out like a sore thumb. There's nothing that a bunch of women trying to raise money to encourage women to be in tech could do to make me feel MORE awkward at events where it's obvious I stand out. Look, I think the project itself is kind of silly. But it could bring more women into tech. And more women in tech won't make me stand out more; it will make me stand out LESS. That's the only way it's going to shake out.

by kondro 14y ago

jordo37 14y ago

1) First, I am speaking from an assumption I hold that hiring people to work for you of all stripes, which means moving beyond the cis-white-males that are more common, leads to better teams, better products and better execution. 2) I usually think about non-standard channels for hiring, or assistance/boosting programs such as this focused on women (as one example of minorities in the tech field) because almost all of industry is subtly or not so subtly biased towards the majority. The ways you relax with coworkers, the non-programming personal attributes that are assessed in interviews, the similarity bias interviewers have to pick people like themselves. These are not intentional acts of sexism, but are nonetheless prevalent.

tanglisha 14y ago

Women and men are raised differently. Things that come natural to you, having been raised male, do not come naturally to a large number of women. Examples include how to make eye contact in an interview and how to shake hands properly. It is very common for women to be raised with an attitude of quietly waiting to be noticed, rather than pointing out their good traits and skills. This can leave them a bit lost when it comes to an interview, which is essentially the time to brag. Aside from childbirth itself, women are far more likely to be single parents than men are, and are normally the ones to stay home with sick children, especially when there is a long-term disease involved. Many women end up dealing with multiple name changes, across degrees and sometimes projects. Of course not all women lack these skills, we would never pretend that to be the case. But the ones that do are at a distinct disadvantage, and there are more of them out there than you realize. Who would you turn to if you didn't even know that your handshake felt like a dead fish and you never once made eye contact with the hiring manager? That kind of feedback doesn't exist after interviews.

kondro 14y ago
For each of these issues I can come up with a counter-point but it won't really solve anything. I agree that having this information available is a positive thing. Limiting it to either women, or even women in IT seems to be part of the problem (not the solution), in my opinion. By all means, market a generic series at women who may be having these problems, but I fail to see how limiting the audience to ONLY women stands up for equality.
- jacques_chester 14y ago
  Again, let me see if I have you right. A project launched by women, aimed at women, because women are an observable rarity in our industry ... is against equality. This isn't affirmative action. It's not a hiring policy. It's a private sector effort by interested individuals who want to help others like them.
  - kondro 14y ago
    In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does this project sound? "A project [to empower men], launched by men, aimed at men, because men are an observable majority in our industry."
    - jacques_chester 14y ago
      > In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does that follow? I'd genuinely like to know your reasoning.
      - kondro 14y ago
        I come from a minority myself (gay from the ironically named Queensland) and find people say the stupidest things that, if modified as suggested, they would be embarrassed to say about themselves.

prodigal_erik 14y ago

They have to target a sympathetic group or they probably wouldn't get donations. Hardly anyone gives a crap what happens to men, especially other men. I'm actually unsure whether or not I would want my rivals to be better at negotiating and interviewing (driving market rates higher but closer to unsustainable levels, and schmoozing into positions that few of any gender are qualified for).

araneae 14y ago

>Unfortunately, all continuing to enforce how special women are (either positively or negatively, in this case) is to keep women thinking they need specialised tools to succeed. It emphasizes it to you. As a woman, it painstakingly obvious I am "special." At the last tech event I was at I was one of three women; one was the girlfriend of the organizer, one was a non technical person looking for technical help for a start-up, and the other was me. I felt awkward and stood out like a sore thumb. There's nothing that a bunch of women trying to raise money to encourage women to be in tech could do to make me feel MORE awkward at events where it's obvious I stand out. Look, I think the project itself is kind of silly. But it could bring more women into tech. And more women in tech won't make me stand out more; it will make me stand out LESS. That's the only way it's going to shake out.