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Plus the undemocratic law making process and the unelected EU commission that is an authoritarian institution without anyone keeping it in check. The DSA is a c

Plus the undemocratic law making process and the unelected EU commission that is an authoritarian institution without anyone keeping it in check. The DSA is a censorship law with an added backdoor (look up "emergency response" and its implications). And tethered caps are just annoying ;)

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
The council, composed of representatives of governments elected in their own state, nominates the commission and proposes laws which are then voted by the parliament where deputies who have been directly elected by European sit. The parliament also confirms the commission. Care to explain how any of that is undemocratic?
- kukkeliskuu 2y ago
  Not OP, but for starters, the referendum in my country about joining EU did not ask whether we should give our independence away to the EU. If people would have been told the actual goal, the referendum would have probably never passed. The EU is not a legitimate democracy.
- lmm 2y ago
  The commissioners are appointed by their party - often the decisions are made by people who are not even directly elected themselves - and as such have no real accountability to the public. MEPs are slightly better but the overwhelming majority of them are "elected" via a party list system, which means that any individual can much more easily get elected by being popular with party bureaucrats than by being popular with the public that they supposedly represent. (But since the MEPs can't write laws, only vote on laws written by the commision, they're pretty irrelevant anyway). Even an extremely unpopular commissioner is at no risk of being voted out. For many years the UK's representative was disgraced former disgraced former MP Peter *Mandelson, one of the most hated people in the country, who could never have won any remotely democratic contest.
  - arrowsmith 2y ago
    Peter Mandelson*. Recently back in the headlines as he was just appointed as US ambassador. I think it’s a stretch to call Mandelson “one of the most hated people in the country”. What did he do exactly? By this point I’m sure the average person has mostly forgotten that he exists. You are right, however, about the lack of real democratic accountability in the EU. The EU commission is the place to “fail up” - it’s where politicians go after their democratic viability has run out at home and the voters boot them out.
    - lmm 2y ago
      > I think it’s a stretch to call Mandelson “one of the most hated people in the country”. What did he do exactly? He had at least the image of a slimeball "spin doctor", seen as having control over the media and using it to control the narrative and cover up government wrongdoing. He was definitely publicly hated even before it emerged that he'd taken a bribe^Wundeclared interest-free loan from a person he was responsible for investigating. You're right that he's mostly forgotten nowadays.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    > The commissioners are appointed by their party Commissioners are proposed by their country and discussed with the head of the commission (which was selected by the whole European council) before being validated by the parliamentary committee in charge of its portfolio (composed of MEPs which are elected using direct universal suffrage and proportional representation (you can hardly be more democratic than that). I understand that you have had issue in the past with the UK pick as commissioner. Sadly the UK uses first past the post election and has a party-chosen prime minister. I would thank you for not projecting the results of the poor democratic system used by your country on the Union in the future.
    - lmm 2y ago
      > Commissioners are proposed by their country Well, no, they're proposed by the government of their country. Which generally means they're selected by the ruling party in that country. > I understand that you have had issue in the past with the UK pick as commissioner. Sadly the UK uses first past the post election and has a party-chosen prime minister. I would thank you for not projecting the results of the poor democratic system used by your country on the Union in the future. Huh? Party list systems (which is what alternatives to FPTP tend to boil down to) redouble the problem - you lose democratic accountability even at that lower level.
tugu77 2y ago
That's a lot of BS. The European Parliament is elected every few years by citizens in all member states. The European Commission is nominated by the European Council and and confirmed by the European Parliament. The European Council consists of government officials from the member states where they have been chosen by national democratic processes. It may be a little complicated, but it's all rooted in democratic processes. Please stick to the facts and keep the populistic anti-EU nationalistic propaganda to yourself. (Every kid in the EU has been learning those basic facts in school for decades, making it surprising that this populist nonsense still catches on with so many people. I have an easier time forgivin non-EU folks, but even those should check the facts before claiming things.)
- cbeach 2y ago
  > The European Commission is nominated by the European Council and and confirmed by the European Parliament. > The European Council consists of government officials from the member states where they have been chosen by national democratic processes. I disagree. Successful elected government officials from member states aren't governing the EU Commission and Council. They're governing their own member states, where they are elected by the public. Unpopular, unsuccessful ex-government officials from member states are governing the EU, where they are appointed by bureaucrats. Just look at the uninspiring Commissioners we've suffered over the last few years. It's telling that the Von Der Leyen Commission scraped in with just 51.4% of MEP votes. https://facts4eu.org/news/2024_dec_unpopular_eu_I https://facts4eu.org/news/2024_dec_unpopular_eu_I In her home country Germany, only 33% said she'd make a good Commission president. https://www.politico.eu/article/most-germans-skeptical-of-ursula-von-der-leyen-poll/ https://www.politico.eu/article/most-germans-skeptical-of-ur...
  - lispm 2y ago
    > Unpopular, unsuccessful ex-government officials from member states are governing the EU, where they are appointed by bureaucrats. Von der Leyen was not appointed by bureaucrats. > It's telling that the Von Der Leyen Commission scraped in with just 51.4% of MEP votes. That's nothing special in European voting systems. Various governments (regional or country wide) in Germany have small, but relatively stable majorities provided by coalitions. That's very different to the mostly two-party systems in the US or the UK.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

The council, composed of representatives of governments elected in their own state, nominates the commission and proposes laws which are then voted by the parliament where deputies who have been directly elected by European sit. The parliament also confirms the commission. Care to explain how any of that is undemocratic?

kukkeliskuu 2y ago
Not OP, but for starters, the referendum in my country about joining EU did not ask whether we should give our independence away to the EU. If people would have been told the actual goal, the referendum would have probably never passed. The EU is not a legitimate democracy.
lmm 2y ago
The commissioners are appointed by their party - often the decisions are made by people who are not even directly elected themselves - and as such have no real accountability to the public. MEPs are slightly better but the overwhelming majority of them are "elected" via a party list system, which means that any individual can much more easily get elected by being popular with party bureaucrats than by being popular with the public that they supposedly represent. (But since the MEPs can't write laws, only vote on laws written by the commision, they're pretty irrelevant anyway). Even an extremely unpopular commissioner is at no risk of being voted out. For many years the UK's representative was disgraced former disgraced former MP Peter *Mandelson, one of the most hated people in the country, who could never have won any remotely democratic contest.
- arrowsmith 2y ago
  Peter Mandelson*. Recently back in the headlines as he was just appointed as US ambassador. I think it’s a stretch to call Mandelson “one of the most hated people in the country”. What did he do exactly? By this point I’m sure the average person has mostly forgotten that he exists. You are right, however, about the lack of real democratic accountability in the EU. The EU commission is the place to “fail up” - it’s where politicians go after their democratic viability has run out at home and the voters boot them out.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > I think it’s a stretch to call Mandelson “one of the most hated people in the country”. What did he do exactly? He had at least the image of a slimeball "spin doctor", seen as having control over the media and using it to control the narrative and cover up government wrongdoing. He was definitely publicly hated even before it emerged that he'd taken a bribe^Wundeclared interest-free loan from a person he was responsible for investigating. You're right that he's mostly forgotten nowadays.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  > The commissioners are appointed by their party Commissioners are proposed by their country and discussed with the head of the commission (which was selected by the whole European council) before being validated by the parliamentary committee in charge of its portfolio (composed of MEPs which are elected using direct universal suffrage and proportional representation (you can hardly be more democratic than that). I understand that you have had issue in the past with the UK pick as commissioner. Sadly the UK uses first past the post election and has a party-chosen prime minister. I would thank you for not projecting the results of the poor democratic system used by your country on the Union in the future.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > Commissioners are proposed by their country Well, no, they're proposed by the government of their country. Which generally means they're selected by the ruling party in that country. > I understand that you have had issue in the past with the UK pick as commissioner. Sadly the UK uses first past the post election and has a party-chosen prime minister. I would thank you for not projecting the results of the poor democratic system used by your country on the Union in the future. Huh? Party list systems (which is what alternatives to FPTP tend to boil down to) redouble the problem - you lose democratic accountability even at that lower level.

tugu77 2y ago

That's a lot of BS. The European Parliament is elected every few years by citizens in all member states. The European Commission is nominated by the European Council and and confirmed by the European Parliament. The European Council consists of government officials from the member states where they have been chosen by national democratic processes. It may be a little complicated, but it's all rooted in democratic processes. Please stick to the facts and keep the populistic anti-EU nationalistic propaganda to yourself. (Every kid in the EU has been learning those basic facts in school for decades, making it surprising that this populist nonsense still catches on with so many people. I have an easier time forgivin non-EU folks, but even those should check the facts before claiming things.)

cbeach 2y ago
> The European Commission is nominated by the European Council and and confirmed by the European Parliament. > The European Council consists of government officials from the member states where they have been chosen by national democratic processes. I disagree. Successful elected government officials from member states aren't governing the EU Commission and Council. They're governing their own member states, where they are elected by the public. Unpopular, unsuccessful ex-government officials from member states are governing the EU, where they are appointed by bureaucrats. Just look at the uninspiring Commissioners we've suffered over the last few years. It's telling that the Von Der Leyen Commission scraped in with just 51.4% of MEP votes. https://facts4eu.org/news/2024_dec_unpopular_eu_I https://facts4eu.org/news/2024_dec_unpopular_eu_I In her home country Germany, only 33% said she'd make a good Commission president. https://www.politico.eu/article/most-germans-skeptical-of-ursula-von-der-leyen-poll/ https://www.politico.eu/article/most-germans-skeptical-of-ur...
- lispm 2y ago
  > Unpopular, unsuccessful ex-government officials from member states are governing the EU, where they are appointed by bureaucrats. Von der Leyen was not appointed by bureaucrats. > It's telling that the Von Der Leyen Commission scraped in with just 51.4% of MEP votes. That's nothing special in European voting systems. Various governments (regional or country wide) in Germany have small, but relatively stable majorities provided by coalitions. That's very different to the mostly two-party systems in the US or the UK.