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I'm often confused at what would be the leverage tech workers have. You can outsource code and services to the other part of the world or well paid consultants

I'm often confused at what would be the leverage tech workers have. You can outsource code and services to the other part of the world or well paid consultants any day really. Unionized industries in general have a geographical, physical and very specialized knowledge others can't replace easily. Ships don't get offloaded, cars don't get produced. But software? You could fire 90% of your software developers, retain the few that you need to keep the business running and that's it. Need new features? Good engineers working on a non cryptic codebase will be able to sort the things out given some weeks. And the paradox is that if we do a good job (documenting, implementing best practices, separating different layers and concerns, writing good automated pipelines) we rend ourselves even replaceable than does that do a crap work.

__loam 2y ago
Hiccups meaning losing over 75% of the value of the company.
- epolanski 2y ago
  I edited that part cause irrelevant, but the counterpoint you make is irrelevant from a software engineering perspective.
  - __loam 2y ago
    No I don't think Elon getting rid of 80% of the institutional knowledge at Twitter is irrelevant from a software engineering perspective. There's been a clear degradation in the algorithmic feed and moderation services that has driven away users and advertisers. Software developers were responsible for a lot of those systems.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      one’s degradation is another one’s advancement and who needs moderation services when you have “free speech,” right? /s elon successfully got rid of 80% of SWEs because he wanted an entirely different platform (which he has now)
gibbitz 2y ago
I believe this is how most existing pre-internet companies do business now. Hire consultants to build the product and let the contract expire. Employ a minimal staff to add new features and keep it running. Expect this to work for 20+ years, but repeat the process in 6. Since, as you note, we have no leverage, we should be happy to wade through all the table-scrap tech debt wrought by offshore consultants (and in the future -- AI) as a way to keep our dependents fed. Why should tech be treated differently by business than delivery drivers at this point? The market is flooded and the skills are no longer unique. The only leverage we have at this point is where we spend our money, but the markets are so consolidated now we can't pick somewhere to get a product that doesn't feed revenue into the company we chose not to buy from.
kcplate 2y ago
What did unions really do for people in their heyday? They worked to improve working conditions, pay, and benefits. Literally nothing there really applies to tech nowadays…especially in FAANG (although most orgs too) and in the US. What is a union going to get you that you don’t have now? You will still have no protection from layoffs. You will not get measurably different pay increases. You will not get full time WFH if your company values in office work. There are a plethora of offshore scabs that your company can employ should you want to strike—people who will not be shamed taking your place because virtual work eliminates the need to physically cross a picket line. Unionizing tech simply does not have the same threat to an organization…it’s an annoyance, not a danger.
the_snooze 2y ago
Not all tech workers are in "stereotypical" software engineering roles at Big Tech firms. It seems like those in defense-related industries would have the most leverage, for all the reasons you describe. Yet there's not much of a push for unionization there. Is "tech unionization" really just a matter of visa leverage? That's a non-issue for people in defense because they're nearly all US citizens.
keybored 2y ago
All hypotheticals. In reality not all software became outsourced. In reality you can earn a good living as a programmer in the West. In the US you can even earn a great wage. Look at reality if you want to honestly determine your leverage.
- epolanski 2y ago
  One should be extremely wary of their leverage in a rapidly evolving and changing world. Especially as more and more people are fleeing into it.
  - keybored 2y ago
    Don’t change your tack now. All that you said could have been said fifteen years ago.

__loam 2y ago

Hiccups meaning losing over 75% of the value of the company.

epolanski 2y ago
I edited that part cause irrelevant, but the counterpoint you make is irrelevant from a software engineering perspective.
- __loam 2y ago
  No I don't think Elon getting rid of 80% of the institutional knowledge at Twitter is irrelevant from a software engineering perspective. There's been a clear degradation in the algorithmic feed and moderation services that has driven away users and advertisers. Software developers were responsible for a lot of those systems.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    one’s degradation is another one’s advancement and who needs moderation services when you have “free speech,” right? /s elon successfully got rid of 80% of SWEs because he wanted an entirely different platform (which he has now)

gibbitz 2y ago

I believe this is how most existing pre-internet companies do business now. Hire consultants to build the product and let the contract expire. Employ a minimal staff to add new features and keep it running. Expect this to work for 20+ years, but repeat the process in 6. Since, as you note, we have no leverage, we should be happy to wade through all the table-scrap tech debt wrought by offshore consultants (and in the future -- AI) as a way to keep our dependents fed. Why should tech be treated differently by business than delivery drivers at this point? The market is flooded and the skills are no longer unique. The only leverage we have at this point is where we spend our money, but the markets are so consolidated now we can't pick somewhere to get a product that doesn't feed revenue into the company we chose not to buy from.

kcplate 2y ago

What did unions really do for people in their heyday? They worked to improve working conditions, pay, and benefits. Literally nothing there really applies to tech nowadays…especially in FAANG (although most orgs too) and in the US. What is a union going to get you that you don’t have now? You will still have no protection from layoffs. You will not get measurably different pay increases. You will not get full time WFH if your company values in office work. There are a plethora of offshore scabs that your company can employ should you want to strike—people who will not be shamed taking your place because virtual work eliminates the need to physically cross a picket line. Unionizing tech simply does not have the same threat to an organization…it’s an annoyance, not a danger.

the_snooze 2y ago

Not all tech workers are in "stereotypical" software engineering roles at Big Tech firms. It seems like those in defense-related industries would have the most leverage, for all the reasons you describe. Yet there's not much of a push for unionization there. Is "tech unionization" really just a matter of visa leverage? That's a non-issue for people in defense because they're nearly all US citizens.

keybored 2y ago

All hypotheticals. In reality not all software became outsourced. In reality you can earn a good living as a programmer in the West. In the US you can even earn a great wage. Look at reality if you want to honestly determine your leverage.

epolanski 2y ago
One should be extremely wary of their leverage in a rapidly evolving and changing world. Especially as more and more people are fleeing into it.
- keybored 2y ago
  Don’t change your tack now. All that you said could have been said fifteen years ago.