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I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's almost every week you hear about China's sixth gen fighters, NGAD, drones, military spending, etc. in the media. Now the various institutional interests want to invest in capabilities to deter this. But this kind of conversation, even if handled delicately in a way that was super mindful of not being xenophobic, was entirely forboden just a few short years ago. Talking about Chinese national students as possible spies. Wow. My ban avoidance scar tissue still tingles with this subject matter. I'm wondering out loud if this geopolitical tension and rivalry is kosher to talk about now.

nindalf 2y ago
dang would have to weigh in but it might be accepted because it’s not that far fetched? Look at all the other allegations in the economist article we’re discussing - in the context of all that flagrant conduct asking state funded students to rat on others is relatively tame.
DarkNova6 2y ago
I know some chinese people very well and even they have been warning about spies on campus for years. I don’t buy the xenophobia argument.
- qwezxcrty 2y ago
  As an Chinese expat, I have indeed heard rumors about undercovers from Chinese three letters agencies in events organized by dissentients (like falungong) and I would try my best to avoid being involved. However I hope the collateral damage to the innocent Chinese expats can be minimized. The reason of many of those to stay outside of China are concerns about the the ruling party and the desire to keep a distance from it. (Admittly also a higher quality of life, but no longer true in many cases.)
- mmooss 2y ago
  Regardless of who you know, don't you think these claims are partly driven by, and drive, xenophobia - the same xenophobia and nationalism being applied to many things?
  - RonaldDump 2y ago
    So? You might need to confront the possibility that these are not the evils you've been led to believe they are. It appears they may well be healthy, rational, vital traits for a people to survive and thrive. A population that actively resists or perverts these natural behaviours through xenophilia is not long for this world.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      I don't need to wonder, I can see the vivid trail through history of oppression, hate, violence, and destruction of humanity and everything it builds. > natural behaviours Always the argument of people perpetrating evil (or nonsense): It's natural! Murder, rape, hatred ... killing your sibling or parent is natural - it's in the Bible! Starvation, disease, warfare, cheating on your partner, theft, ... every bad thing is natural. So is every good thing, and many/most/all cultures have long said you have the moral choice, in Abrahamic religions ever since we left Eden. We have the knowledge of good and evil. > A population that actively resists or perverts these natural behaviours through xenophilia is not long for this world. Nothing is worse for humanity than warfare, and it's common cause is xenophobia and nationalism. The West has done very well embracing new immigrants. The USA is almost all immigrants or their decendents. You don't have to embrace hate or these nonsense arguments. The treasures of freedom and peace and justice are at hand; you only have to take them up. They are far more capable and productive than these fears - look at the most free, most safe, most prosperous countries in the history of the world, with no peers or competition. They are all built on universal human rights - universal!
      - RonaldDump 2y ago
        [flagged]
IncreasePosts 2y ago
It seems like it would play right into spies hand, if you convince people "don't even think this is a possibility!" This reminds me of the paradox of tolerance. You know there would be no hand wringing in china about whether they could even discuss the possibility that some Americans in china could be spies.
dang 2y ago
Nothing has changed in terms of HN moderation. You shouldn't conclude anything from one data point (or a handful of them) - there's far too much randomness.
peutetre 2y ago
> The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech Of course. China is in America's telecommunications systems. It's a problem: https://fortune.com/2024/12/27/china-espionage-campaign-salt-tycoon-hacking-telecoms/ https://fortune.com/2024/12/27/china-espionage-campaign-salt...

nindalf 2y ago

dang would have to weigh in but it might be accepted because it’s not that far fetched? Look at all the other allegations in the economist article we’re discussing - in the context of all that flagrant conduct asking state funded students to rat on others is relatively tame.

DarkNova6 2y ago

I know some chinese people very well and even they have been warning about spies on campus for years. I don’t buy the xenophobia argument.

qwezxcrty 2y ago
As an Chinese expat, I have indeed heard rumors about undercovers from Chinese three letters agencies in events organized by dissentients (like falungong) and I would try my best to avoid being involved. However I hope the collateral damage to the innocent Chinese expats can be minimized. The reason of many of those to stay outside of China are concerns about the the ruling party and the desire to keep a distance from it. (Admittly also a higher quality of life, but no longer true in many cases.)
mmooss 2y ago
Regardless of who you know, don't you think these claims are partly driven by, and drive, xenophobia - the same xenophobia and nationalism being applied to many things?
- RonaldDump 2y ago
  So? You might need to confront the possibility that these are not the evils you've been led to believe they are. It appears they may well be healthy, rational, vital traits for a people to survive and thrive. A population that actively resists or perverts these natural behaviours through xenophilia is not long for this world.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    I don't need to wonder, I can see the vivid trail through history of oppression, hate, violence, and destruction of humanity and everything it builds. > natural behaviours Always the argument of people perpetrating evil (or nonsense): It's natural! Murder, rape, hatred ... killing your sibling or parent is natural - it's in the Bible! Starvation, disease, warfare, cheating on your partner, theft, ... every bad thing is natural. So is every good thing, and many/most/all cultures have long said you have the moral choice, in Abrahamic religions ever since we left Eden. We have the knowledge of good and evil. > A population that actively resists or perverts these natural behaviours through xenophilia is not long for this world. Nothing is worse for humanity than warfare, and it's common cause is xenophobia and nationalism. The West has done very well embracing new immigrants. The USA is almost all immigrants or their decendents. You don't have to embrace hate or these nonsense arguments. The treasures of freedom and peace and justice are at hand; you only have to take them up. They are far more capable and productive than these fears - look at the most free, most safe, most prosperous countries in the history of the world, with no peers or competition. They are all built on universal human rights - universal!
    - RonaldDump 2y ago
      [flagged]

IncreasePosts 2y ago

It seems like it would play right into spies hand, if you convince people "don't even think this is a possibility!" This reminds me of the paradox of tolerance. You know there would be no hand wringing in china about whether they could even discuss the possibility that some Americans in china could be spies.

dang 2y ago

Nothing has changed in terms of HN moderation. You shouldn't conclude anything from one data point (or a handful of them) - there's far too much randomness.

peutetre 2y ago

> The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech Of course. China is in America's telecommunications systems. It's a problem: https://fortune.com/2024/12/27/china-espionage-campaign-salt-tycoon-hacking-telecoms/ https://fortune.com/2024/12/27/china-espionage-campaign-salt...